Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Ibrahim Jabary of Gamelearn with Corporate Game-based Learning since 2007 | Episode 142

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Ibrahim Jabary is the CEO and one of the founders of Gamelearn, where he has participated in the concept of all the videogames of the company. He studied business. Later, he did his MBA at IE Business school.

After a career in international companies and his experience at Jabary Consulting, a face-to-face training company for managerial skills, he embarked on the adventure of founding Gamelearn in 2007. This is how he has become a pioneer in the development of videogames for corporate learning and is a reference for game-based learning, named Innovator of the Year by the learning! Media Group twice.

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Rob

 

Full episode transcription

Rob (40s): well, engagers today, we have Ibrahim. But before we get started, Ibrahim, are you prepared to engage?

Ibrahim (46s) I am. I am totally, let’s do this

Rob (48s): because I am very interested in this guest. This is an interview I’ve been looking forward to for a while because I learned about their company a while ago, and I’ve been going to a couple of their events as well. Ibrahim Jabary. He is in fact, the CEO and one of the founders of this company that I’ve been looking at, which is called Gamelearn, where he has participated as well in the concept of all the video games in the company.

And that is exactly why we wanted to have him on the show. He, he studied business and also did his MBA, which he did at IE Business School, which as you know, is where I work and teach as well. I wasn’t a professor at the time that Ibrahim was studying, but after his international career in many companies and his experience, of course, at the Jabary consulting, which was a face to face training company or his, I’m not, I’m not sure if that company is still running. It is a face to face training company for managerial skills.

He embarked on the adventure of founding Gamelearn in 2007. And this is why he has become a pioneer in the development of video games for corporate learning and is a reference for game-based learning in general. And he was named innovator of the year by your learning media group twice. So Ibrahim, is there anything that we’re missing from that intro?

Ibrahim (2m 2s): No, I don’t think so.

Rob (2m 4s): Fantastic. So we always like to know a little bit more about our guests. Like what does a typical day look like? What is, what does your schedule look like in a, in a typical day like today?

And I know now we are, we have changed the better schedules in general, thanks to all this of virus situation, but what would you say your day look like?

Ibrahim (2m 22s ): I’m sure it’s probably not as interesting as people might think. So I would say most of my day, unfortunately, is meetings. I would say there are two main kinds of meetings on one side, there all their management related meetings with my team. And the second type would be in designing meetings, which are the ones I like.

But again, unfortunately, it’s not the one side dedicate the most time to. I normally tend to work only when the working hours are over. So when the team goes to rest at six or seven in the afternoon, that’s when I have my time. So I can start thinking I can start working on my concept and my ideas for the games and also for all the strategy in the company. So most of my working hours would be dedicated to meetings and only when those finished, then I can start actually working.

Rob (3m 24s): So you have like a dual career here as the CEO and all these meetings and as well, doing all that amazing concepts and all of that part that you do for the video games as well. Right.

Ibrahim (3m 35s): I wish I could work more on the games, but, but also I love the side of it and CEO and, and the strategy for the company. So yeah, in a way you have to, I have to work those two different roles and I’m, I’m a, you know, doing fine, hopefully, in the future, we can tell

Rob (3m 56s): I’m sure. I’m sure. And once we get to know you a little bit more, we always like to start strong, as we would say, we would like to talk about a moment. Because we’ve, as you said, you’ve been doing a lot of meetings. I’m sure this has been shifting and changing throughout the years through all that experience. And we’d like to know of a time and throughout all of this experience, I’m sure it’s been more than just once we’d like to talk about a time of an, a fail, the first attempt in learning or failure, your favorite failure that of course taught you interesting things. Like what happened?

What would you attribute that to? How did you get out of it or learn from that? We’d like to be there with you sort of relive that moment and learn from it hopefully, and not commit the same, the same mistakes that you could have done it back in the day.

Ibrahim (4m 39s): I don’t appreciate you making me relive this horrible story. And I have during these 12 years because game land’s been working for 12 years already, I made so many mistakes. It’s difficult for me to choose one. And I hope I was able to learn from most of them. And if I have to pick one, I would go probably for one of the ones I’d made sooner. And that was when I was designing my second video game.

And that was 10 years ago. And this was a game called Triskelion. It’s a course on time management and personal productivity. And that was a nightmare. I think it took us close to three and a half years to complete that game. And normally took us two years, one year and a half. And it was completely full of, you know, bad stories and bad experiences. But I guess the two main errors I’ve made there, and there were a lot of them.

The two principal ones were in one side, we outsourced engineering in that project and we didn’t choose wisely. So we ended up working with a couple of companies which didn’t deliver, let’s call it like that. And it was horrible budget-wise, time-wise, energy-wise, it drove us completely crazy and it had a huge impact on our clients too, because they were waiting for that course.

So basically we learn from, from that moment on, we build our own engineering team and never since then we have outsourced a core, you know, element of the company, which is all the production side of our games. And it took us, you know, legal fees, we ended up in court, it was a terrible experience and we didn’t control the quality. We couldn’t control the developers and an absolute nightmare.

And the second error. And I think that was a, you know, game design-wise. I think that’s more important lessons from, for everybody is that because we were successful in our first game, the second game, we became kind of like too ambitious. And we started making a game that was way too complex. So we wanted to simulate real life. So things just got out of hand and we ended up working with a game that was too long, too difficult to play.

It was full of very interesting things, but they were only interesting for me as a, as a game designer, not interesting for, for the users. So again, since then we, we started working on, you know, shorter games, easier games, and we started thinking more on the user and the end-user more than the interest in the needs of us as game designers. We always say one thing that are not exactly the ones that are our players want.

Rob (8m 1s): So it’s, it’s thinking about your users and complexity. I’m, I’m thinking like, well, on the first one, I think it was very clear that one of the, the mistakes, at least at that stage that you were in, I’m not sure if you would have, well at this point, I’m sure you would have tried to do it differently, but sometimes, you know, externalizing is just a reality. That’s something that you have to do. And then maybe it would have been about picking who that was. Maybe testing something further. If you can give us a few pro tips from that experience, I know you then went for your own team, but if there’s any tips you can give the audience The Engagers, that will be great.

And then, you know, that, that whole design thing, that game design thing of going for something that is not bigger than you can, then you, at least at that point that you could manage. I know that’s a very sort of complex concept. Like how do you know when it is too much? How do you know when it is too little? If again, if there are any pointers you’d like to give out, that will be that’d be awesome.

Ibrahim (8m 57s): I think it’s never too little. I think we always expect people to expect more from our games than they are actually expecting. So we need to understand, and if the game is building our minds and it’s never what they expect. And normally if, if you have to choose always choose shorter, always choose easier, always choose faster because the world we are living in now moves quick and you know, players want to feel that they are not dedicating more time than it’s strictly needed to play, to understand, to enjoy your, your game.

So my tip would be, if you have to choose, they never go for the complex option. You always go for the shorter, with the cheaper, the faster, the quicker, the easier for them, for the player. And obviously regarding the first mistake. At that point in time, we didn’t have our own, our own engineering team. So there was only the option of outsourcing. And obviously, if I have to give tips is never worked with someone you don’t know, or at least you have referrals from. You should run a test first to understand, to see if the people you’re going to be working with, understand your perspective, may understand your needs and exactly know how you were expecting the result.

And the most important thing is that you make sure everybody in this team understands what’s the final outcome that you have in mind. So they need to know exactly what you expect the end result to be. Because if not, you’re going to be having a lot of issues and misunderstandings in the way.

Rob (10m 45s): That sounds like it, know, understanding, you know, what are the objectives? And what’s the final product going to look like as something that is definitely fundamental and taking a shift, I know you’ve had many successes with your videogames. I’ve seen some of them live some of the presentations as well. I would love for you to give us a story about one of those successes. Like something that you, you know, you set out to do this game. It went out great. And, and what would you say are some of the key perspectives, attributes, lessons that you took from that success as well, and feel free to pick any one of them, of the stories that you might have in your, in your long career as well?

Ibrahim (11m 22s): Okay. Well, at this point, this is difficult to choose because I have a lot of love for every single game that we’ve made. And it’s been more than 15 since we started. And then the fact is that all of them have worked very well. And obviously some clients prefer ones over others and, and some other clients prefer the others. So it’s a matter of taste. It always will be. For me, obviously the, my favorite is the first one.

It was the probably, the most difficult one to design because it, everything was starting back then. We didn’t have anyone to look at no benchmarks, no previouss experiences we could copy from. And it was a total and absolute adventure. And also the subject itself. It was very, very challenging. It was a game called Merchants for negotiation skills. So we needed to build not only the story but also the simulation to make the player feel he was actually negotiating with the characters in the game and trying to, to design that simulation was completely awesome.

I mean, it was an experience. It was difficult, but in the end, we were able to, to offer our clients something really different that nobody had designed or made before. And it worked amazingly and because it was the first game and we were all, we always, we were also testing for us was the go from the market.

So that was the big trial. In our case, we were trying to prove people would love to learn by playing and that we were able to design a game that could actually teach and with Merchants we were able to do so, and our clients were delighted. And at that point, we knew we have something interesting in our hands and we started working on it.

Rob (13m 31s): That sounds fantastic. It’s very, very inspiring as well. And is there a, of course, you know, one of the things was obviously that you were one of the first ones to be at that corporate market, and I am sure that there were many elements of, you know, as an entrepreneur, but as also a game designer that you are at heart as well. Are there any key things that you would say, well, one of the things that we had in this game that we found was very, very successful after, after the fact was this and this, or the way that we approached this was particularly interesting, maybe compared to other things or given the fact that it was new. Any, you know, one or two key elements that you would find from that experience?

Ibrahim (14m 7s): Well, I think the Merchants game is based on amazing content. So obviously because we had a very good negotiation course previous to the design of the game, I think it was that that was very important for the success of, of Merchants. And then second, the way we were able to replicate the role plays and the, you know, cases that we were using in our face to face training while, you know, the delivering our negotiation course.

How we were able to transfer those into the game, into this simulation, I think was the most important factor. And if you look at the game design, I would say that probably when simulating the negotiation for us, the biggest challenge was not to fall into the, you know, the trend to just use multiple-choice options. So to actually make the player feel he was in control of the negotiation and also not only choosing from different options but creating his own options.

I think that’s the biggest thing of Merchants. So in fact, after obviously you’re, you know, having a conversation with them, with the character you are negotiating with, at some point in the game, you have to start defining and writing down a proposal from scratch. And I think that’s the key moment the key one moment in this game because people need to start using their creativity and they have to start figuring out how they can solve the problem they are trying to solve with this character that you’re negotiating with.

So I think that’s the key element of, of the game and probably one of the main reasons for its success.

Rob (16m 2s): Absolutely. So providing a lot of freedom to your, to your players, which was something that is hard to say technically very challenging, especially for the time. And the other thing is that you were basing this on something that you already had, which is, it kind of is the situation of many, many of the teachers and professors that might be listening right now, The Engagers in the audience that you already know your content and hear you, Ibrahim already knew his content very, very well. He had all these role plays, all these things that were already developed and already being used in a face to face environment. And this was translated a part of it I’m guessing that it was translation, but a large portion of it as well was, was turning it into, you know, having those affordances.

We’ve talked about this before, what the medium is now allowing you, that you weren’t able to do face to face. And what does, of course, face-to-face allow you, that here was not possible. And how do you balance out all these things? I think those are key elements and fantastic ones as well. And Ibrahim we’ve, we’ve been talking about those two projects, the Merchants and the Triskelion. And of course, you mentioned that you had already, I think it was 15 was the number of by now where we are in 2020, mid-2020, I’m guessing that you have some sort of process, some sort of structure or framework that you follow when you are creating these games, especially again, as you were saying from the game design perspective, like, do you follow some structure of somebody else?

Have you created your own? Is it, and how much of this can you share with us? We would be delighted to know how, how that works, like get into your head a little bit. If you creating tomorrow a course on something new.

Ibrahim (17m 30s): Well, again, as we, as I said before, we weren’t able to actually copy nobody and we could not, you know, take other references to it, to build our game-based learning courses. And we ended up building our own, our own flow. And it’s not, it’s not that difficult. It’s always, I think everything is pretty much common sense. And, and as you were saying right before, the most important thing, when you’re building a video game for training, you need to have awesome content.

If you don’t have content, then it doesn’t matter if your story, eh, rules say, doesn’t matter if, if a game mechanics are awesome in the end, the cause is not going to be effective because you’re building a game to teach. And if you don’t teach anything, then you didn’t accomplish your main goal. So the first thing is you need to understand what you’re teaching. You need to own your content from that point, then you can move on. If you don’t have that as, as a first step, you, you, you will end up with a very bad, you know, gamified course.

So first thing in, in our, in our case, we always start with the content. So we write down what exactly we want the students to learn. And then, this is very, very important, we decide how we want them to practice it. So it’s not only about transferring information. It’s not only about the theory, but we always think on how can we make our students practice, what they have learned through the lessons, for example. So in a way, because we are trainers at heart, we know that learning happens when you are practicing and when you are receiving feedback.

So after defining exactly what people need to learn, then we start defining how people are going to be practicing those lessons and how are we are going to be giving them feedback about what they’re doing right and what they can improve. And so once we have these two first steps, then you’re only, then, we start thinking about game mechanics and the story. So those would be the third and fourth steps.

So first content, then the practice or the simulation, then the game mechanics. And in the end, we wrap up everything with a, with an interesting story to accomplish the engagement. So in a way, always looking for effectiveness through good content and good practicing, exercises and cases and feedback, and then a good engagement with game mechanics and storytelling and rankings and competitions, and, you know,

Rob (20m 24s): Absolutely, absolutely. It sounds very, very sound in that sense, as you were saying, of course, first understanding what it is that you all that content, all those learning objectives, getting them set to very, very well, very, very clear. Then of course you want to see what are those things going to translate into actions. I like to call those as well and desired actions. What are the things that you want your learners to actually do so that they learn what you want them to learn?

And then of course, you’d to start getting into things like the game mechanics and the theme. Some people like to start with a theme. It seems like you are in your process you are more of a game mechanics and how the whole dynamic is going to be working and then wrapping it around with a very, very nice theme. Which I have to say, you, you should check it out. And in, in their webpage, the themes of Gamelearn are pretty, pretty fantastic as least as far as I’ve seen them to this point.

Just a quick break. Before we continue with this episode, if you’ve been enjoying this podcast, I would really appreciate if you share it with your friends and family and on social media. On Twitter and Instagram, it’s @RobAlvarezB and the hashtag #professorgame, all one word. And in Facebook, you can find the Professor Game page, thanks in advance for your engagement!

So Ibrahim, again, we’ve, we’ve been talking about all your experience, how do you do these things? And I would like to know if there’s what you would call, perhaps something like a best practice, something that when you’re creating these game-based learning solutions, you would say, well, if you think about it this way, or if you follow the process that you were mentioning before, or, you know, have you think about these things, the project will probably be a lot better than if you didn’t.

Would you say there’s such an element?

Ibrahim (22m 5s): Well, I, I guess it probably following the, four steps and never missing one, that would be probably what, what my advice would be. And for me, you know, if, if you think that all of us, you know, trainers and teachers and instructional designers, we know the content that and probably, we know how we want our students to practice the content. What I would always advise is you need to build a good story so that, that will make a, you know, the students love it.

So if they learn and they have fun, those are your two main goals. Then you, you’re going to be having our, you know, completion rates. They are way over 90%. When if, if you look at the average completion rates in the, in the market for traditional e-learning, we are talking about 25-30%. And this, I think it has to do a lot with this concept that we’ve been dealing with. Is there good content, good teaching pedagogy, and then a very nice story to make sure that people feel engaged and they want to finish the course.

Rob (23m 15s): Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s always a worry. When you go into the world of MOOCs or e-learning or whatever, that’s going to look like, completion rates are always a big worry because those numbers tend to be quite troubling when you want to make sure that people go through whatever that training is going to look like. And after hearing these questions after sort of feeling the things that you’ve, you’ve seen around this podcast, is there somebody you would like to listen to answering these questions another guests that you would like to suggest for Professor Game for podcast?

Ibrahim (23m 46s): I think there’s probably one, one, one person is not related to game-based learning, but he’s probably one of my first references since, since I started, you know, thinking about building games and also playing games. So for me, Tim Schafer, I don’t know how you call it from Double Fine Productions. He worked at the Lucas Arts world for a very long time. He was a, he designed in Grim Fandango and Psychonauts, Broken Age and co-designed the Monkey Island sat down.

So for me to listen to that guy, he knows about this sector. He knows about building games, he’s an awesome screenwriter, and he’s also very fun to listen to. And he says, he’s a guy who brought humor to video games you know in a way that nobody did before, I think it would be awesome to listen to this, this person.

Rob (24m 43s): He sounds like very, very exciting person to listen to. Definitely. So we’ll add him definitely to the list and see if we can have him on the podcast in the future. And I will let you know if he, if he comes in so that you can listen to that one as well. And in that same sense of recommendation’s is, is there a book that you would recommend to this audience, again, people who are interested in game-based learning and these kinds of strategies, again, it could be directly related to that, or it could be something that is not directly related. However you want to, you want to take that and of course, tell us why you would recommend that book.

Ibrahim (25m 15s): I think the book that I think of right now, it’s not actually directly related to game design, but still, I think it’s a hundred percent applicable and that’s The Lean Startup. So the whole lean concept is totally applicable to our games. And when you’re designing a game and you’re thinking about your game mechanics and how you launch it also, I am fortunate enough to work with a web browser-based in online games that allow me to make a lot of changes while the game is already, you know, in the market.

So this helps me a lot but, if, if you have that possibility to build your game, as you would build a, you know, a lean startup, you know, from your MVP, the advice in the book about how you, you, you add up and you work with your players and your users. I think that’s awesome advice that is a hundred percent applicable to the game design too.

Rob (26m 20s): Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, I’m going, I’ve mentioned this before. I think somebody has mentioned that book before and given that we are in this space, there is a book, I don’t know if you know of Amy Jo Kim, she was one of the game designers in Rock Band or a one at some of those games that she’s, she’s been at many of those things. And now she has something that she calls Game Thinking, which I would say is kind an evolution or a different path after, you know, it considers all of the concepts of lean startup, lean thinking and all of these, all of these concepts and takes it as well to a sort of new level as well.

When you think about a, through as well, the lens of, of game design, which is a big part of her experience, and she helps a lot of innovators do these, these kinds of things. I would say that that would be a nice followup as well to the, to the lean startup. She’s a, she’s a good friend. And you know, when we’re talking about these recommendations, it’s hard not to ask in a podcast like this one in this world that we’re, we’re at, it’s hard not to ask. What would you say is your favorite game? And I know, I know this one is a very difficult question, but you know, your most recent, your oldest favorite game, however you want to approach this question is fine by us.

We’re all into talking about games, so that’s good.

Ibrahim (27m 35s): Okay. You have to understand that I am a, an old guy and I’ve been playing games for quite a long time right now is really, really difficult. I, I played, you know, probably the first games ever and it’s very difficult for me to, to choose for me, I would say like, because of different reasons, three games that I love, one would be Civilization from Sid Meier, then a little bit planet because of, of, of the concept and Uncharted as one of the, like modern games. But I played with these old games, I just loved like Sim City or the Lemmings or Mario Bros, Half-life, Doom and of course, Monkey Island.

So this, I love. And then also, if you look at only the design, you choose ones. If you look at aesthetics, you would be choosing different ones. For me aesthetic-wise, I would say the Journey or Bioshock Infinite, or Monument Valley or Broken Age and, you know, game mechanics. So there’s, I, I couldn’t choose this. If you asked me my favorite book I couldn’t tell you if, if you asked my favorite movie, I couldn’t because I love so many of them.

Rob (28m 52s): That makes a lot of sense, especially in the world we’re at right now with so many awesome games, like the whole series of Uncharted , which, which you kind of mentioned as well. I’ve, I’ve gotten locked into that. And I recently bought the, the, it has like two or three of the Uncharted in a single game, and I’m starting to play that as well on my, on my PlayStation.

Ibrahim (29m 13s): I have to say that I’m worried a little bit because although there’s this huge amount of new videogames coming on, coming out every day, I am a little bit worried because I see huge lack of creativity. So you end up, I don’t know if it’s a matter of the sector, only financing those games that are either, you know, sequels or, or maybe things that they think they are gonna be working for sure.

But it’s difficult to find in the stores and I’m not talking about indie because obviously indie but, yeah, it worries me so much that we end up, you know, having these firt-person shooters and you know, a little bit of strategy, little sports and I’m driving and this, eh, I’m missing something new, I’m missing something new, you know people with, you know, interesting ideas, different ideas. It happens in the movie sector too. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s a pity.

Rob (30m 14s): Yeah, absolutely. I could name a couple of things that have like raised my interest in that sense as well. Recently, for example, I was in the Madrid Games Week recently, well, not so recently anymore. And one of the things that I saw that as a games is not even yet released as well, was when they were showing the VR of Iron Man where you are. I mean, I saw very little of it. I couldn’t even get to play at the cue was it was huge. And I only had one day, but the way it was played was like very, very different because you are in VR and you’re like, you are actually flying and all these things that you could do, it seemed pretty, pretty awesome, especially again, because it’s in, in this level of modernity, it’s, it’s a relatively new game.

And the other thing is I will point you to games like the ones that are being done by Jesse Schell. And the interesting thing is that they are still, they still have a lot of that indie sense that they’re not by any, by any capacity. I wouldn’t say that they’re a AAA studio. They are relatively large where they they’re still quite indie and they are experimenting a lot in the VR world as well. You know, there’s, I Expect You To Die as a game that they were recently doing and is sort of a, I don’t know if I can call it a sort of escape room in which you’re sort of a, a secret agent and then they have, there’s another one that is a sword fighting game that they’re using a lot of right now, again is, and it’s also on VR.

So, you know, there’s, there’s interesting things that are coming up. And I do think as you were mentioning that it’s might be an interesting opportunity for the indie studios to, to be getting into the field and be breaking into the field and doing new things. So, Ibrahim, I think we do have a few minutes and I would, I would read definitely. I, I found a random question from the audience about and given your background, I do think it could be something interesting to tackle with you. This question comes from Scott Beattie was a listener and he sent this question very, it looks very simple, but I’m sure it has a lot of depth as well.

So, so approach it as you wish, he’s saying, can you please talk about low-cost strategies for games and learning? Like, how would you approach it if somebody came up and said, well, I know your, your games are, you know, incredible and massive as well. But if somebody came up with this sort of low-cost strategy or, you know, low complexity strategy, what would you recommend? What would you tell them? These kinds of people?

Ibrahim (32m 27s): Well, I understand the question and because it’s probably one of the main problems that we were facing in the past day, as, as I said before, it took us two years average to be able to design and develop one of our games. And obviously, when you’re trying to teach and when you’re trying to use video games as a training format, you need to be more scalable than that. So it’s in a way lucky in, in the, in the other hand, you have to allow me, but if you’re asking me right now, what would be a very quick and very cheap way of producing your own video games?

And also I can add with the equality that Gamelearn has been offering in the past. The good news is that next month we are going to be launching our editor. The editor is basically a tool that will allow you to build a videogame without writing a single line of code. So it’s basically kind of a Lego system. You will be connecting blocks. You’ll be basically choosing from different scenarios from a library, different characters.

And we have, you know, dozens of them to be chosen from. And in fact, our latest games have been designed using this same tool. So it’s basically a tool that we’ve been using for the past six to eight months. And now we are releasing it. So anybody out there, any teacher, any instructional designer, any trainer who’s willing to transform his own e-learning content, or even face-to-face content into a videogame format, eh, he can do so using this.

And I have to tell you that it’s taking me less than two weeks to build my, my latest courses that have been released in the, in the market. So I think that’s pretty appropriate as a, as a, as an answer, as a sales pitch. So, well, you can, you, if you follow us probably in the coming 15 days, you’re going to have a lot of information about this new tool. And that is really I’m telling you is awesome.

Rob (34m 47s): That sounds absolutely amazing. A couple of disclaimers here. The first one is I did not have this information beforehand. The second one is: Ibrahim did not know it was going to make this question as well. So I it’s, you know, how incredible, how serendipity every now and then kicks in and it has these kinds of opportunities. And it sounds actually amazing. I’ve been following a few of the things that are being done there. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the RPG maker, which is pretty cool. There’s things like Branchtrack, but I’m sure what you guys are releasing is going to be amazing.

And if it’s what you’re using for your video games, I’m pretty, pretty confident. It’ll have a lot of not only success, but it will allow a lot of people to, to have success doing their own thing. So thank you very much for that one. I’m sure it’s going to be very interesting for quite a few. However, you know, before we, we, we take off before we finish this interview, I want to make sure that people know where to find Ibrahim where to find Gamelearn, like let us know where we can find you. If you have any final piece of advice, also, please let us know before we, before we finish and take off for today.

Ibrahim (35m 51s): Okay. So, well, if you guys want any kind of information about the company or the new tool that we are releasing, then you can search for us in Google Gamelearn or www.game-learn.com. And also you can write to me it to info at game-learn.com and hopefully we’ll be able to answer any, any questions you might have and also through, I guess, probably through your, through your casts, they might be also to contact me if they need some.

Rob (36m 28s): Absolutely. We will put all of that information available in the show notes. Also, if you go to professorgame.com, you will find a list of links to all of the things that Ibrahim has been mentioning right now. And you’ll be able to see all of that information there. So thank you again very much, Ibrahim, for, you know, getting investing this time with us, with The Engagers in this podcast, delivering all that value that you’ve been delivering throughout the interview. Even the latest news that we’re getting from Gamelearn, releasing this thing that looks pretty, pretty awesome. At least before we get to see it, however, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s Game Over.

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