Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Cedric Pontet Facilitating Games for Learning | Episode 149

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Cédric Pontet is CTO @ Agile Partner, founder @ #play14, EventStormer, Sketchnoter, Happy Salmon guru, Gnome drawing expert, and much more.

He is a seasoned software expert and Agile/Lean coach. He started his software engineering career in 2001 and since 2005, has been happily employed at Agile Partner, where he has worked on a large variety of projects, for customers in both the public and private sectors. He is currently CTO of the company.

On a daily basis, Cédric is helping teams on matters such as software architecture, cloud computing, agile, lean and DevOps. Defining himself as curious and pragmatic, he is proud to be part of different communities (Agile, Domain-Driven Design, EventStorming, Sketchnoting) and enjoys mixing these influences to bring people together.

Cédric is one of the founders of #play14 (play14.org) a worldwide community of like-minded people who strongly believe that playing is the best way to learn, share ideas, and trigger creativity. He is also an international speaker in various software and agile conferences such as Build Stuff, Voxxed Days, KanDDDinsky, Agile Grenoble of FlowCon.

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Rob

 

Full episode transcription

Rob (5s):
Welcome to Professor Game Podcast, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking, who bring us the best of their experiences to get ideas, insights, and inspiration that help us in the process of getting the students to learn what we teach. And I’m Rob Alvarez. I teach and work at IE Business School in Madrid, where we create interactive and engaging learning materials. Want to know more, go to professorgame.com/subscribe.

Rob (36s):
Start on our email list and ask me anything! Engagers. Welcome back once again to Professor Game Podcast and we’re with Cedric today, but Cedric, before we get started, are you prepared to engage?

Cedric (50s):
I am.

Rob (50s):
Let’s do this. And Cedric, Cedric, how should I pronounce that?

Cedric (54s):
That’s Cedric.

Rob (55s):
Cedric. Okay. So Cedric and I hope I got that decently. My pronunciation is not…

Cedric (1m 2s):
If you want the French accent. It’s Cedric Pontet.

Rob (1m 5s):
Cedric Pontet. I’ll try to do that as many times as I can today,

Cedric (1m 8s):
But don’t… No worries. I’ve, I’ve been traveling a lot. So I have had many different versions of my name. So I’m used to it.

Rob (1m 16s):
That is fantastic Cedric because he is the CTO at agile partner, and he’s also the founder of #play14. He’s an event Stormer, a sketch noter happy Salmon guru. We might get a little bit into understanding what that’s all about. A gnome drawing expert in much more. He is very seasoned as a software expert and agile and lean coach. And he started his career in software engineering in 2001 and has been happily employed since 2005 with Agile Partner.

Rob (1m 49s):
Of course, there, he has worked on a large variety of projects for customers in both the public and private sectors. As I said, he is the CTO of this company. And of course, in a daily basis, he is helping teams on matters like software architecture, cloud computing, agile lean, and dev ops. I’ve heard this before. Not only because I’m a software engineer, even though I’m not doing any of that nowadays, but because our development team is using these dev ops. So that’s something interesting from our team at IE. He defines himself as well as a curious and pragmatic and is proud to be part of different communities.

Rob (2m 23s):
Things like agile domain-driven, design event storming, sketchnoting, and he enjoys mixing these influences to bring people together. And one of the reasons why Cedric was brought to our attention as well is because he’s one of the founders of #play14, that’s splay, fourteen.org, a worldwide community of likeminded people who strongly believe that playing is the best way to learn, share ideas and trigger creativity. And he is also of course, an international speaker of various software and agile conferences like build stuff, box days, Kandinsky, agile, Grenoble of flow con Cedric Silverlake.

Rob (2m 59s):
Is there anything that you would like to highlight that we perhaps didn’t mention or, you know, you want to make sure that our audience gets right?

Cedric (3m 6s):
I think you said it all, I pretty much double in different things like my daily job and my let’s say my passion for games on the side. I use them both. So it’s a, it’s pretty good for me.

Rob (3m 21s):
Sounds pretty, pretty exciting as well. And we would like to know Cedric, like in a, in a day, like today or yesterday, whatever you want to go for, what does it look like to be Cedric, like in a day, for a whole day, for a whole week, whatever you want to go for?

Cedric (3m 35s):
As I said, I have many, I wear many hats. I am the CTO of agile partner. I am also an agile coach at agile partner and as such, I do different things. I have also a, my, a passion with play 14. So it’s quite different. So as a CTO, I take part of some meetings for general partners, leadership teams. I provide guidance regarding infrastructures and tools that we use at, Agile Partner and technologies, of course.

Cedric (4m 6s):
And I make sure that everyone in the company has what they need to work efficiently. As a coach, as I try to coach, I’m part of a team of more or less 12 people, 12 agile coaches and scrum masters. So we interact a lot. We always work as pairs for, for a given customer, for example, or even three or more people as a team. So when we help customers, we, we try to, to have them become more efficient, to deliver faster and to embrace change, especially lately with the COVID disease.

Cedric (4m 45s):
It’s been quite a challenge for us and for customers. We usually run workshops and meetings. And of course, we train a lot of people using games as a metaphor for learning then as a software architect and a cloud architect, I, I also run workshops like you mentioned, event storming, which is a, basically a technique to a well to try to make sense of a complex mess, complex business processes. I also provide guidance, on technologies and architectures and help the team implement the best technical practices, in the most efficient way.

Cedric (5m 25s):
And as one of the founders of #play14, I used to be very involved in event organization, but now we’ve decided to let the community take more part, in that area and really give it back to the community. But we try to make sure as founders that the philosophy of #play14 is well understood and that the values are respected. So now, I spend a bit more time answering questions and providing some information, making sure that the community stays active and positive.

Cedric (6m 1s):
And I’m also in charge of maintaining the website. That’s a side story and, and yeah, I try also to find better tools to make online events possible and, and more inclusive and immersive because of course, we’ve had some setbacks. Before events were mostly in person and always a physical gathering. And now it’s, we’ve tried to move that remotely, but it’s a, it’s a bit of a challenge.

Rob (6m 29s):
It is a big challenge indeed. And that sounds like you have so many things going on. It sounds so very exciting Cedric. And actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. I think I did an, our email that your, your initiative, of #play14 was brought to our attention Because of Andrew Lau. He is…

Cedric (6m 47s):
Yeah.

Rob (6m 48s):
I don’t know if you remember him.

Cedric (6m 49s):
I do remember him is a, is a great guy. I’ve, I met Andrew last year in a, in Kuala Lumpur when we were doing the first #play14, even there, unfortunately, he couldn’t play that much because he had to take care of his kids. But, but yeah, I really appreciated the conversation with him. And definitely his approach to games is, is pretty interesting.

Rob (7m 13s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And talking about approaches to games and playful attitude and using games for many initiatives, we would like to get into a story, a story of a time, Cedric you’ve had a lot of experience in software development. You’ve had a lot of experience with all these workshops and all these things, but I’m sure that there have times where things have been a bit more rocky, you might even call these fails or first attempts in learning. So we would like to know if one of those situations where again, you were using your, this playful attitude, you were using games, you’re using all these strategies that you have in your, in your toolbox, but things didn’t go as well as you wanted.

Rob (7m 45s):
And of course, what did you learn from that? And/or how did you get out of that situation? So we want to be there with you

Cedric (7m 52s):
To tell the truth. Well, let’s, let’s take the example of what has happened lately. I, I really did not believe that playing the kind of games that we do at #play14 and that we do usually use in a, in the agile community where applicable with online or remote in remote situations. I, I was really not convinced that it was worth spending time for that. And I strongly believe that the best learning could only be achieved with co-located players and the facilitator that would be there with them.

Cedric (8m 25s):
So I kind of resisted this idea of online games and online #play14 event. I know that some of the people in the community, they were, they were already going in that direction, but I said, I don’t really think it’s that relevant, but of course, since the COVID, we had to, to embrace that fact and, and it changed completely everything. So at my work, for example, we have training where we use games. We are completely rebuilt that training to make it remote-friendly, and to adapt, of course, the games that we would play physically to something else.

Cedric (8m 60s):
And at #play14, we experimented with online events, smaller events at first, and then longer ones. And I realized that it could be done to actually provide value with games. The learning objective could be reached, but it works, but it’s still a lot of work to make it work properly, to make it very efficient.

Rob (9m 21s):
No surprise.

Cedric (9m 22s):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s, I, I’m still missing a bit of spontaneity and the kind of rush that we have sometimes at #play14 where we, we just improvise something because you have a discussion with someone and then you say, okay, let’s do this and, and just try it out. And it works. And then the result is great. This is much more difficult to achieve in an online fashion. Still. I resisted this for quite some time. And now I see that actually it’s a different approach, but it’s still valuable.

Cedric (9m 53s):
And it actually opens a lot of doors like for the moment before, like six months ago at agile partner, we wouldn’t consider coaching online, for example, or training people that were on the other side of the planet now its. It’s a possibility we are actually planning to have a training with, with a company that we know in Italy. So that’s what we can do now because of this effort that we’ve done changing things that were really built to be on the physical level to be remote-friendly.

Rob (10m 25s):
Absolutely. And this is a challenge that many, many of us have been facing in different ways in different fashions, but I’m sure that the lesson, that it gave you, it brought to you was very, very important and something that you will be using. Not only right now, when, you know, still the COVID is out there and we’re trying to stay safe and to reduce the impact that is out there, but I’m sure this is a lesson. And these, these tools that you have now, these opportunities that have come up, many of them will be still there, out in the future.

Rob (10m 55s):
And we will be continuing to take good advantage of them and, and talking about opportunities because I love your story because it shows how, you know, you can change your perceptions with different circumstances and not everything that happens, even when there are bad things happening, not everything within that is, has to be bad. So it shows resilience and many other things. And I’d like to shift to another story if that’s okay. I’d like to shift to a story where we actually go for a story of success. Again, you were, you were creating, you know, creating, using, implementing a game, a playful attitude for what, for example, for one of these workshops or whatever you want to go for.

Rob (11m 34s):
And, you know, you actually, it was a success. It’s something that you can be proud of today and say, well, this is, this went great. And this is something that we are still using, or that was successful for its time. Would you please tell us one of those stories?

Cedric (11m 46s):
Sure. Well, I can, I can remember, for example, I have many stories about games that we use in, in at #play14 of course, but I think I will tell a story about the way we use games at agile partner for training. So we have this, this training called agile primer, which gives really the core philosophy of agile. And we try to focus on, on the values and principles of agile and for that to illustrate this because you can, you can say something in many different ways, but it’s never as strong as when people actually experience that themselves.

Cedric (12m 23s):
That’s why we play games. That’s why we use games to teach. And, and I was in a, in a big four company. I will not say which one, but there are four of them that make your pick. And we were in the, in the training room and the top partner, the big boss of the office in Luxembourg was there in the training because that guy actually realized that there was something going on in his company that this, this wind of change was really blowing. And he wanted to understand what was going on.

Cedric (12m 53s):
So you actually had the great idea of following spending two days with us to follow this training. And in the room, there were different people. So that person who was a partner in the company and some other partners and some of the managers and, and, and even one person that was a junior that was hired like two weeks before. And there were like 18 levels of hierarchy between these people. It’s an incredible hierarchy structure in this kind of organization.

Cedric (13m 25s):
So, and we were really scared at some point that people would be reluctant to speak up because this big partner was in the room and that maybe they would not dare say things that they would have expressed otherwise, in another context, maybe if they were just within their teams or with people may be that they worked with on a daily basis. But then we played that game called the ball point game, which is our go-to game.

Cedric (13m 55s):
When we want to explain a lot of, to make people experiments, experience a lot of things about agile and the agile principles and values. So we played that game and, and after two minutes of setting up the game, that partner was actually throwing balls at that other person that was hired two weeks before. And everybody in the room was actually playing the game and really throwing balls at each other and laughing and trying to make, to improve the way they played the game.

Cedric (14m 26s):
And that’s a real story of success for me after that game, first, we debriefed a lot. We spend a lot of time debriefing the game and not only they understood of course, the values of agile and the principles of agile, but there were no differences anymore between these two people that were really like every 18 levels of apart in the hierarchy, they were on the same level now because they experienced something very strong for, let’s say, 20 minutes of the game and debrief.

Cedric (14m 56s):
They felt the same experience and all, all differences were completely leveled out. And then they could really start experimenting or talking to each other, on the same level. And I remember that in the same company and other partners came to me at the break and said, I’m a bit scared that people will not talk because I’m there. And I said, don’t worry about that. We’ve been there, we’ve done that, that game will actually solve all of these issues because it will break all the, all the barriers.

Cedric (15m 29s):
It will put people at the same level of understanding first, but also at the same level of experience. And then you just forget about your level of you’re in the hierarchy, and you’re just here to learn. So that’s, that’s one experience that we reproduce a lot. Like every time we use that game and games in general.

Rob (15m 47s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s beautiful. How it was able to break that hierarchy. You know, you’re, you’re at a higher level, I’m a medium level that there’s another one at a lower level, and people can just be there and play games if they’re well-designed if they’re well thought through, and they’re there, they’re useful for what you’re doing. People are just going to sit there, you know, whether it’s around the table, however, it is that you designed it for it is capable of working in putting those people in, sitting them down together and achieving these amazing things as you were describing.

Rob (16m 17s):
And I love your story. So thank you very much, for such a fantastic story. And you’ve given us a couple of examples of things that you’ve done. And I tend to think about, I’m an engineer. I understand you’re an engineer as well. We tend to be kind of structured in a way. And sometimes we, we kind of look for that structure. Do you have some sort of, again, structure, procedure process system that you use when you’re creating one of these workshops? When you’re thinking about teaching one of these things using games and playfulness, how do you approach it? How, how do you do this?

Cedric (16m 48s):
Well? The starting point is always, and should always be the learning objective. What do you want people to get out of the game? What do you want to teach? And if you have that clear in your mind, and sometimes it’s not easy to, to clarify that. So in some cases, there have been quite long discussions at agile partner. What is actually the learning objective that we need at that moment of the training, for example, or in that specific workshop that we are designing, what do we want them to learn and to take away?

Cedric (17m 19s):
But once this is clarified, then you can find the game that is the most appropriate. So if you already know a game that can fit, then it’s perfect because there are a lot of different games that are already out there that are, some of them are actually documented on the #play14 website, but there are also other games that are documented on tasty cupcakes, for example or the website. And of course there are so many of them that, that, you know, some of them that apply in some situation, but if some don’t if you can’t find any that really apply, then you can design one.

Cedric (17m 54s):
It’s a bit of a, of a challenge, of course, but you can always design a game or an activity. Let’s say that we’ll try to reach a learning objective. One of the tools that I use to help was actually designed by people at #play14, and it’s called the debriefing cube. And it’s as the name indicates it’s was, it was created by my, my friends, Chris Caswell and Julianne Kea. So Chris Caswell is a, is from London and Julian Kea is in Berlin.

Cedric (18m 27s):
And they, they really got together and said, there is a lot of people, they propose a game, they facilitate games, but they don’t really know how to debrief the game. Because most of the time it’s either very questions that are on the surface that don’t really reach very deep. Like, was it fun or things like that, or they try to push their own assumptions or their own understanding of the game to the people who actually played the game. So they created this tool. That’s called the debriefing cube with six different lenses to debrief a game.

Cedric (18m 57s):
And the lenses are the goal of the game, the process of the game, the group dynamics, the communication that was going on during the game, the emotions that people felt and the takeaways. And this helps us when we design a game or when we try to figure out if the game is, will fit for this kind of learning objective, these different lenses can help you figure things out. So that’s what we use.

Rob (19m 22s):
So those are lenses basically to evaluate how the game is doing at the game is, is going right. Is that correct?

Cedric (19m 29s):
Well, it can help you to evaluate the game if the game is the best fit, according to your learning objective or the, if the takeaways, for example, the particular lens is what people should have at the end of the debrief. While if it fits your learning objective, then you’re pretty sure that there’s a good match here. It also helps you debrief the game at the end. So you can actually give… The cube comes with the dice that you can throw and, and a set of cards where you have questions that can be asked.

Cedric (19m 59s):
So it can be used in different ways, but you can also just give the cube and the cards to the players, and they will debrief their own game, their own experience. So as a facilitator, you will not be tempted to push your own assumptions to explain to the players, or you should have understood that you should have felt this because this is probably the worst thing that you can do as a facilitator. You don’t want to explain to people what they should have felt or understood.

Cedric (20m 28s):
You want them to realize that by themselves, you want them to reflect on that by themselves. So this tool actually helps the facilitator take a step, step back, and let the players debrief their own experience.

Rob (20m 43s):
Absolutely, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Just a quick break before we continue with this episode, if you’ve been enjoying this podcast, I would really appreciate if you share it with your friends and family and on social media, on Twitter and Instagram, it’s at @RobAlvarezB and the hashtag #ProfessorGame, all one word. And on Facebook, you can find the Professor Game page, thanks in advance for your engagement. And Cedric, what would you say is sort of when you’re doing this, I’m guessing it can be, you could even be the debriefing queue right now, but is there some sort of best practice, anything that you would say that a game-based learning project or a playful project can benefit from if again, a best practice or something that you would say is useful in these kinds of situations.

Cedric (21m 31s):
Best practice well…

Rob (21m 35s):
Could be using the cube!

Cedric (21m 37s):
I don’t know if yeah, well using, I highly recommend using the cube. It’s really helpful, but one of the best practices I have is… you need to know your games well. You, you need to, to be very fluent in the way you set up the game. In the way you explain the rules, most games are a very simple set of rules, and you should be able to explain them fast, but clearly so that people, there is no assumption. There is no misunderstanding about the rules.

Cedric (22m 10s):
Otherwise, you risk to whoever people will not get out of the game, what you expect. And unfortunately, it will generate a lot, of misunderstanding and, and it may become counterproductive in some cases. So if you’re not confident with your own facilitation of the game, then it’s probably a problem for you as a facilitator. And that’s also why we created #play14 at the beginning, that it allows people who are new to, to game facilitation, to really experience, get, get more experience.

Cedric (22m 44s):
Like I have a story about Nancy. I met Nancy she’s from Amsterdam and the very first #play14. She was there. She came to a second event that was in Luxembourg, and she played a game that she didn’t know it on the first day of #play14. #play14, usually when, when it’s a physical event, it takes place over two and a half days. Like it starts on Friday evening. And then it goes on Saturday and Sunday. And on Saturday, she played a game as a player, as a participant.

Cedric (23m 16s):
And on Sunday, she was facilitating that same game to try to become better at facilitating it. And I, I thought that it was very daring from her to do this as fast as that because it takes guts to actually re facilitate a game that you just learned the day before. But it’s really this mindset of, I want to become better at using that game and facilitating that game. So I jumped there in the pool and, and I, I just take the, and because it’s #play14 is a safe place.

Cedric (23m 48s):
Nobody will judge you if you make a mistake, or if, if the game is a bit challenged at some point, and on the other side, they will give you advice. Other people will, will help you give you hints or tweaks that you can use variations of the game, these kinds of things. So it’s really a good, good opportunity for a facilitator, even an experienced one to take a game that they’ve never facilitated and, and really train to, to facilitate that game.

Cedric (24m 18s):
So coming back to my original point, I think you need to know your games. You need to be able to explain the rules very efficiently. And of course, you need to have some facilitation tricks up your sleeves. Like when you see that players are not progressing in the game, some sometimes not, not, not getting where, where they should then give them some hints, have them a little bit.

Cedric (24m 49s):
Sometimes it’s also a good thing to trick them on the other side, if you want them to get the full experience out of the game and reap the, all the takeaways, there are some, some small tricks that you can use to really make them experience the whole of the game. So that’s, that’s what you need to do as a facilitator.

Rob (25m 8s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that comes with experience and #play14 seems to be the right place to get that initial experience Cedric and we would like to know we were, we’re going into recommendations. Now you, you were commended your best practice. Is there somebody that you wouldn’t recommend just like Andrew Lau said, Oh, I would really like to listen to Cedric said we can, in an interview, there’s somebody that you would like to listen to in an interview like this one in professor game?

Cedric (25m 32s):
Well, at the risk of being insistent, I think the debriefing cube is a very interesting thing. So I think you should talk to Chris Caswell and Julian Kea about that. That’s that’s because they invented it. So they are better than me to, to speak about it. And I think it’s a, it could be an interesting interview.

Rob (25m 53s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And continuing with that recommendation spree, is there a book that you would recommend an audience like this one? Like the Engagers?

Cedric (26m 3s):
That’s a very tough question because I have so many books that I could recommend. So I, I will, I will say I we’ve, we’ve played at #play14 with lateral thinking puzzles. So lateral thinking is really a way of changing your, the way your brain thinks about solving problems. And there are a lot of books that our thinking was first coined by a guy called Edward de Bono, but there are a lot of books on Amazon.

Cedric (26m 35s):
So it could be like more or less mathematical puzzles. Sometimes it’s more like a story of sometimes even that you used to tell each other when you were kids, they are considered as lateral thinking puzzles and the, and it’s a lot of fun. So, but there’s also another book that is a book from Sharon Bowman’s training from the back of the room. It’s a, it’s a great book. And I think every person who does workshops and facilitates games should read that. The Sketchnote Handbook from Mike Rohde is also a great book.

Rob (27m 9s):
And we’re getting a broad recommendation territory here.

Cedric (27m 13s):
Yeah, yeah. Recently I’ve started to read the emotional life of your brain from a Richard J. Davidson. And it’s, it’s also a great book because you learn about how, but your brain and your emotions and it’s, it’s, I’ve, I’ve just started it, but it seems to be a quite interesting book.

Rob (27m 34s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And what would you say, in this world? I know you’ve, you’ve probably played quite a few games, especially given all your, your circumstances and all the things that you do, but what would you say is your favorite game? And again, that could come from your historical game, current game, I don’t know wherever you want to go with that.

Cedric (27m 52s):
Well, regarding the training that we do at agile partner and agile training in general, and my go-to game is probably the ball point game. So it’s quite all day. I think I can’t even remember when it was played for the first time, but I did not invent it. It was invented by someone else. Like, I don’t even know the name of that person, but thanks to that person for inventing this game. And this is really our go-to game that we use in most training because there’s a lot of things that you can explain that you can debrief from it.

Cedric (28m 30s):
And there are many variations that you can play. So that’s really one of my favorite games.

Rob (28m 36s):
Ball pond. How do you spell it?

Cedric (28m 38s):
It’s ball point like a mint ball. Like the goal of the game is re you are one team and you should throw balls from one person to the other in the, in the team with a specific set of rules that is quite simple. And you are one only one team. So you compete with yourself in that game and it’s a, it’s built with iterations. So you explain the notion of iteration it’s built well. So with some reflection time, in the end, to try to improve the process of the game.

Cedric (29m 11s):
So it gives us the opportunity to explain what continuous improvement is. The fact that you have two minutes iteration and two minutes to reflect on how to make your process better is a really great way, to explain these notions. And, yeah, it’s a very interesting game and I’ve seen a lot of different variations as I mentioned, and there are always some nice tricks to learn from other people when you see them facilitate. Okay. That’s also one thing that I love at #play14 is that I stole so many things from other people that I, it, it really enriches my toolbox a lot and, and that, that’s, that’s a great thing.

Rob (29m 54s):
It sounds very, very exciting. And we’ve seen that you are sort of a magic wizard of all these things and of those things that you’re, you’re doing constantly. What would you say is that thing, you know, with playfulness and facilitation of games, what would you say is that thing that is sort of your superpower, that thing that you do probably better than most or than maybe even than all other people that, you know, that’s your sweet spot, that’s your place?

Cedric (30m 19s):
What I, I, I think that’s a, maybe doesn’t show very much better. I’m a very shy person at first and, and really deeply 14 helped me a lot to be more confident. And, and because of that, now, I’m not scared of trying things out, trying to experiment a lot. And it’s, it’s now kind of in my daily routine to challenge stuff and to try to figure out how could we do that differently to see opportunities where other people would see blockers and, and yeah.

Cedric (30m 54s):
Playing with variations and experimentation is a, is…

Rob (30m 58s):
Evolving through play or something like that. Right?

Cedric (31m 0s):
Yeah.

Rob (31m 1s):
Absolutely.

Cedric (31m 3s):
I have a, I, you mentioned that I, I love that game. That’s, that’s called a happy Salmon. So it’s a very simple game. It’s a, it’s a game that you can buy from, from any shop and you have four different gestures and you have a deck of cards that will tell you what, just so you should, you should do. And you need to find another person to do that gesture with. And that game is designed to be played with six people at first and with another person from play 14, we had several decks.

Cedric (31m 34s):
And the first thing we that we, we said, let’s, let’s scale this game. Let’s, let’s try to play with more than six people at a time. And we managed to play like 50 something people, and this kind of mindset, like don’t be constrained by physical constraints or this kind of, of, because one thing was built for that usage doesn’t mean that you cannot hack this tool or this or this game or whatever, to make something else out of it. So this is probably one thing that I got good at with play14.

Rob (32m 8s):
That sounds very, very good. So before we get going, I want to make sure that you mentioned, you know, all the places where we can find, you know, both your, your, your day job, play 14, all the things that you’re doing now, where we can find more about you and the work that you do. And if you have any final, quick piece of advice, that would be very welcome as well.

Cedric (32m 28s):
Well, it’s a quite simple, you can find me on LinkedIn Cedric Pontet, I think on the agile partner’s website. So agilepartner.net, and probably the simplest is to find me on the play14 website. So Cedric play14.org play14.org is the website. And that’s it. I’m also on Twitter. I’m not on Facebook though. So don’t, don’t look for me on Facebook. You won’t find me.

Rob (32m 58s):
You will find a fake Cedric Pontet,

Cedric (33m 0s):
maybe there are other

Rob (33m 3s):
alter ego. Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you very much for investing this time in the Engagers, giving all that wisdom of all that experience that you got today, but at least for now, and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Engagers. It is fantastic to have you here. And I would like to know, how are you listening To this episode, to this podcast in general, if you’re doing it through your mobile, in a podcasting app, can I ask you if you have subscribed if you have rated this podcast?

Rob (33m 38s):
If you haven’t please go ahead and do so. That improves what we call our discoverability in the podcast so that we can reach more Engagers like you to achieve our mission of making, learning, and life amazing using games and gamification. And if you want the instructions, you would just have to go to professorgame.com/itunes. And of course, before doing it, before you join your next mission, talk to you in the next episode of Professor Game, see you there.

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