Rob Alvarez Bucholska
1

Alyea Sandovar Brings Playfulness to Gamification | Episode 166

Listen to this episode on your phone!

Alyea Sandovar, Ph.D. is a game and play consultant. She works with trainers, consultants and entrepreneurs to add more fun and deepen engagement through gamification. She has a whole slew of degrees: A Ph.D. in Game Production, a Masters degree in Psychology, a Masters degree in Human Organizational Systems, and a Bachelor’s is in Public Relations and Communication. She has worked with academic institutions, non-profits, game studios, corporations and start-ups.

She passionate about creating high-quality products with ease and fun. She believes creating playful products should not be a headache. She is originally from Colombia but now considers herself a world citizen as she also lived in Costa Rica, USA (Florida, Texas and California), Amsterdam and is currently residing short-term in Berlin.

 

Guest Links and Info

 

Links to episode mentions:

 

There are many ways to get in touch with Professor Game:

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription

Rob (5s):
Welcome to Professor Game Podcast, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking, who bring us the best of their experiences to get ideas, insights, and inspiration that help us in the process of getting the students to learn what we teach. And I’m Rob Alvarez. I teach and work at IE Business School in Madrid, where we create interactive and engaging learning materials. Want to know more? Go to professorgame.com/subscribe, start on our email list and ask me anything! Hello, Engagers welcome back to this episode of Professor Game podcast. And today we are with Alyea, but Alyea are you prepared to engage?

Alyea (48s):
I sure am!

Rob (50s):
Alyea Sandovar is a Ph.D., of course, and a game and play consultant. She works with trainers, consultants, entrepreneurs to add more fun and deepen engagement through, yes you guessed it: gamification. And she has a whole slew of degrees, a Ph.D. in game production and a master’s degree in psychology. Another master’s degree in human organizational systems and a bachelor’s in public relations and communication. And she has worked with academic institutions, nonprofits, game studios, corporations, and startups. She’s also passionate about creating high-quality products with ease and fun and believes in playing for creating playful products should not be a headache.

Rob (1m 30s):
She’s originally from Colombia, but she considers herself a world citizen who has also lived in Costa Rica and the USA in Florida and Texas, California, Amsterdam and is currently residing short-term in Berlin. Is that correct?

Alyea (1m 43s):
Yes, that’s correct.

Rob (1m 46s):
Fantastic. So Alyea, is there anything that we should, and shouldn’t have skipped that we did or anything else you want to highlight before we get started?

Alyea (1m 53s):
Wow, no hearing myself or hearing my background. It’s like, well, it’s a mouthful.

Rob (2m 1s):
Absolutely. And she’s also part of the playful creative summit is that, did I get the order right?

Alyea (2m 7s):
Yes, you did.

Rob (2m 9s):
Which is going to happen in April. We recently had an interview as well with David. So you want to check that out as well? It is in the books already, but before we get into that Alyea, we want to know what does Alyea do? What does a regular day with you look like? What, what do you do on a regular basis?

Alyea (2m 26s):
Oh, wow. Okay. I think my day changes day by day. And I assume when you’re asking me for my day you’re, I mean, I imagine you are asking me for my workday, so let’s just go with that. So actually, I begin my day with what I call my playful practice. So I don’t just like to wake up with an alarm. I wake up naturally and then I am very serious about sort of starting my day on a good note. So I do five to seven things that really make me feel good and playful and happy. And that includes things from exercise, meditation, drawing, journaling, reading something, especially this year.

Alyea (3m 13s):
I, I got really hooked on watching at least two or three YouTube videos of comedians before I get, my day started just to make me laugh a little bit and, and just, you know, just get myself into a different type of zone even before I have breakfast. And then, of course, I have breakfast and yeah, usually the morning I spent doing some sort of like a personal education, so I will learn something new around gamification and maybe I’m usually, I’m usually taking some sort of course or business development. So I spend the morning focusing on that. I have lunch usually then I go for a walk.

Alyea (3m 54s):
Oh yeah. I definitely take a break at some point around 11 to go get myself a “cortado”, which is like my ultimate favorite coffee. So yeah. So I’ll go get that. And then after lunch is when, say like my work, work begins, I will have a series of client appointments. Sometimes I meet with David, my co-founder at the playful creative summit. If we plan things or I’ll have meetings with part of the people that helped me, like my administrative assistant and things like this. So client meetings, it just depends on what the day is. Or maybe I have a podcast recording like this one and yeah. And then I do, if I need to plan something, if I’m working on a particular project, maybe on that day, I’ll spend an hour or two preparing something for that project.

Alyea (4m 43s):
Then usually I end my day around seven, 7:30 or eight and then have dinner and I don’t know, do something fun with a friend or watch a… Right now I’m really into Christmas movies. So I’m pretty much through all of them, Netflix, Christmas movies. And then I just try to end my note it, you know, my day in a high note. Oh yeah. And I also, yeah, I think of myself as a very spiritual person. So before I go to bed, I do all my prayers for all of my family and all the people that I love and make sure that they are taken care of. And then I go to sleep and that’s my day

Rob (5m 21s):
Sounds very, very complete that’s for sure. You do all the things tick all the boxes.

Alyea (5m 28s):
Tick all the boxes. Yeah.

Rob (5m 31s):
Fantastic. Fantastic. And talking about ticking all the boxes sometimes, you know, we create that list of those to-do lists or those things that we want to achieve and we get into projects and we want to do this and that, but it doesn’t always go the way we expect for sure, right? So we want to get into a story. One of those stories of a time, you know, you set out to do something, but you know, it ended up in a fail or a first attempt in learning, or maybe what you would call your favorite failure and what, what happened there. What was your, of course, don’t get into any specifics you can’t get into, you know, NDAs and companies and so on, but we want to be in that story with you. We want to learn from that story and see how you managed to survive basically after that. So can you tell us a story of, of course, ideally from something playful, creative?

Alyea (6m 13s):
Sure. This was a, this is a story about a major project that I was a part of. And basically, this was a project that no one knew what they were doing. And so, I mean, yeah, I mean, w I, I won’t say any names or anything, but as the client, there was the first time the client was doing what they were doing. It was his first time that the game design company that had hired us was doing what they were doing. It was the first time that that game development company that was hired by the game design company was doing what they were doing. And it was the first time that I was really working on such a large project and I’d worked managing before, but I’d never worked in this specific type of role before.

Alyea (7m 0s):
And so what happened is I was in charge of this particular part of the production and we needed to have like, like the MVP done for the client by a certain amount of time. And what happened is because no one knew what they were doing. I was attending all these meetings to try to understand what I need to do, but then I was falling behind on my actual production tasks. And so what happened is because I was falling behind my production tasks, I could not take care of making sure that that MVP version was actually good and high quality. And then because of that, when it was released to the client, it was awful.

Alyea (7m 46s):
Not only was it awful, but in front of the whole team. And at this point we were like 70 people, I think, a large team, the CTO, along with the lead manager for the entire project, very openly shared how my department, without naming me specifically, but considering, it was a department of, well, mainly me and, and a few others, but in my department failed, right. It’s like we failed in this department and I’m like standing right next to them.

Alyea (8m 26s):
I’m going, Oh my gosh. And I was like, are they gonna fire me right now? Because they were Dutch. So Dutch people usually are very direct, but they didn’t, I guess in work, they don’t really tell you that maybe there’s something off. So I was really like, it was just so overwhelming by the number, but it’s like I had this lead role. But in addition to that, I had to do everyday tasks to yeah. To make sure that, the game that we were building was good. So luckily after that, I sat down with the main manager and then we talked about why I had fallen behind and, and I wish I’d been able to tell him ahead of time that I was falling behind.

Alyea (9m 14s):
I thought everything was going to be okay. And it just turned out that there was too much work in my department for the number of people that we had at that time. And so luckily then we were able to discuss how to hire more people, organize it, and then they didn’t also blame me very much. I think they all knew that the whole project was a mess because they were like, yeah, okay. If we can’t hold our part, I don’t know. Maybe they felt like we can’t, you know, hold her completely responsible for this either. So, but after that, like once we got the right team and got them, and we hired people very quickly to join my team, I was able to get on top of everything and I was able to organize everything and, and then, then we thrived and we started doing really well.

Alyea (10m 4s):
But, but yeah, so that was a failure. And then, and then actually my team did such, such a good job or at least my area that we, yeah, we were recognized in the project later. And I, after this project ended, the client itself hired me to do more work for them. So, yeah. So maybe that’s a down in a win at the end,

Rob (10m 29s):
You always learn from what to do next, but we have a question from that story because of course at that point you didn’t know what you didn’t know, but if you are going to face something that was in a certain capacity similar, what would you do differently? Like, what was the lesson that you took away from, those difficulties of the small team not arriving on time? Like what did that look like?

Alyea (10m 50s):
Well, I think that the lesson is that I sort of underestimated how important I was or how my, my own responsibility. I think at that point, I was sort of leaning on the higher-ups to kind of pull through, or I don’t know, like, there’s this feeling of like, yeah, this is my responsibility, but ultimately if they need certain features in the game for the client, then it’s also their responsibility to make sure it gets there. So I think what I learned from that is that I needed to be a lot clear about what needed to go in this one release.

Alyea (11m 33s):
And also that it was my, like, it was my baby, so to speak, right? Like ownership, taking ownership, exactly. Taking ownership. I didn’t quite take ownership at that point because it felt I was also really new in the project. Right. So I felt like, okay, I’m just getting my feet wet, but if I could do it again, if I’m in of, if I was to come into a similar role where I’m a little bit thrown in the deep end, so it’s something that I haven’t done before. Definitely taking ownership from the beginning, but fully, right. I’m not waiting for someone to give me permission or not waiting for someone to tell me what needs to go in there.

Alyea (12m 12s):
Right? I was very good at trying to understand and learn and okay, I need to get this in age. I go to that meeting. I make sure I get the information from here, but really this idea of like, no, this is, this is on me because it’s on me. This is my product. This is my team. If I know that I’m sort of like swamped and not going to have enough time, I would now tell someone like, Hey, I’ve been in this situation before we need to hire people right away, for example. So yeah.

Rob (12m 42s):
That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So, Alyea, we want to go from, from difficulties to actual success, of course. And of course, we want to see, you know, the time you, you faced a challenge and you solved it using hopefully gamification or some similar technique, we want to be there with you and see some of the success factors as well. I’m not looking for, you know, the golden game mechanic or anything. It’s just like, what was your experience we want to, we want to sort of be there with you.

Alyea (13m 7s):
So something that I was successful at.

Rob (13m 10s):
Yeah. One of those proud moments may be, and there, of course, if you want, you can name any names or if, if that’s not possible, that’s fine as well, but just want to be there sort of in the, in the deep end with you and see that experience.

Alyea (13m 21s):
Well, okay. But you want one that’s gamification, not life. Yeah?

Rob (13m 26s):
Ideally. Yes, of course.

Alyea (13m 27s):
Yeah. Okay. So I think this is with one-on-one clients, my individual clients as, you know, I work with consultants and entrepreneurs and without going into too much detail about what this person does well, okay. Let’s just say that, that this person trains other people in a particular type of subject and this population is one that is very difficult to focus in personal development or transformation. And so, yeah. So anyway, my client came to me to get some support on how he could make the training that he was providing more fun and more playful.

Alyea (14m 15s):
And so, you know, the thing about what’s at least the way that I do gamification is that I also take the person that is delivering it or the person that’s creating the playful experience as part of the experience. So it’s really important for them. I ask everyone to take a, like a playful personality quiz, which is from the Stuart Brown book. And, so that they understand the type of playful person that they are. And I think that’s really key to when they’re doing playful activities, because if you, if you go with their strength, then it helps them, you know, ease into creating some sort of like playful experience.

Alyea (14m 57s):
So anyway, so we talked about his playful personality and what he could do, and then we discussed a few things that he could do in terms of playful activities that could be done with this population. So I don’t know if I can go into detail on what they were, but I can, I can say what I said was like, what do you know about your, your people? Like, I think it would, I think it’s just also about understanding yourself as the person that’s delivering it, and then the people who you’re serving. And so I was like, what, what do you know about who they are? What do you know about how what’s important to them? You know, what, what do you know about what makes them laugh? You know, their personalities, these kinds of things.

Alyea (15m 39s):
So he described this very interesting profile. It was like a male profile. And so we came up with like really fun activities for them that he would have never come up with because my whole thing was like, you gotta meet them where they are at. Right. So, yeah. So yeah, it’s not, it’s not just about whether or not these kinds of activities fit you solely, right? You have to kind of have that like sweet spot in the middle, where’s your personality. And then you have to pick out things that entice them and make them feel happy. And so I helped them come up also with some sort of cultural memes for this group and ways to like, sort of tell jokes and, and things like this.

Alyea (16m 23s):
I mean, doesn’t sound too gamified, but really, he got really a lot of energy from this session and later told me that he’s having so much fun with his client groups and they’re, they’re learning so much more because they’re super excited and they feel like he gets them, even though they come from two completely different types of cultural backgrounds and philosophies.

Rob (16m 47s):
Amazing sounds very, very good, very interesting in a way of getting into the minds of those other people. And that actually leads me very, very well into the next question, which is about your process. So again, imagine you’re facing one of them, a client like that one or any other one, they ask you to build a solution using gamification or playful strategies. How do you approach this? Do you have a process? Do you have a framework? Like how do you do these things when you have to do them? What does it look like?

Alyea (17m 19s):
Yeah. So I do a little bit of a mix of different things that I’ve learned. So, I tend to use the MDA model a lot, the, you know, mechanics dynamics, aesthetics model in games, because what it does is it takes into account. The three components of what I think is really important in gamification. So it takes into account the designer, which in this case would be either the person delivering the training or the person to deliver the course or the program or whatever or business owner. It takes into account the player, so the customers, and then, of course, it takes into account the thing that you’re creating, where does the programs of course, or whatever.

Alyea (17m 59s):
So I think that’s really important. The reason why I say this, like also, as I mentioned before, in my opinion, most gamification folks don’t take into account that designer part. And maybe it’s because my dissertation was so focused also on production and the designer mindset. That it’s a really important part for me. So usually what we do and in, for the, for the middle part, I actually borrow not all of it, but I borrowed some, some of the thinking from Yu-kai Chou from that does Octalysis prime, which I’m sure you know of. I’m one of his members. And I really like the way he actually helps people think about how they’re designing the product.

Alyea (18m 44s):
So anyway, I began my process, really. I began by asking people to always take the play personality quiz. That gives me an idea of who they are, what they are, and what’s important to them. I also have like an intensive questionnaire that tells me about their business, who their customers are, their values what are important to them. And then the, so they’ll come to me and we have different types of sessions. So usually we can do what I call like an ideation session. And usually, these are more to give them cool ideas that they can do in a playful environment in that sort of very loose, not very bounded.

Alyea (19m 24s):
And it takes into account their values, their business values, what they want to get out of it, their play personality. Then if they really want to design a solution. So for example, I have one client who really wanted to redo a website where she was giving this online travel experience. So in her case to be able to do that, then we also looked at, okay, who are her players, who are her customers? And it gets really complicated if I give them a bunch of options in terms of different types of player types. So I just use Bartle’s four types. And I know we have many other ways of looking at them and lots of other gamification player types, but just for simplicity to help them sort of think about the different ways that people can complete their courses or their online products.

Alyea (20m 11s):
So we, so we look at that and we look at what’s important to them, right. So, okay. So if you think these are your player types, what kinds of things are going to important to them? Do they, are they going to want power or are they gonna want stuff? You know, what, what is it in the hierarchy of the rewards that they might want? And then for the designed experience, usually this is where I borrow from Yu-kai. He always says, make sure you have your business goals really outlined. So I make sure that, that they outline what their business goals are for their particular program or their particular training or their particular course, and that they are ordered from highest, most important to least important.

Alyea (20m 53s):
And then based on that, then we started sort of, kind of thinking about how it should be designed. And then we have several sort of design sessions where we’re going into whatever that is, the program or the, you know, the course or whatever. And then we sort of co-design it together. And then usually they go away and maybe they have a virtual assistant or someone, a graphic designer that does all the nitty-gritty, but then the thinking, would you sort of collaboratively, that’s what I’m doing, gamification. I’ve also been hired to just do like little games. And in that case, then the process is different because then it becomes more of a research process. If I do games and I interview, let’s say for the rheumatoid arthritis association in the Netherlands for the, I was the, for the children, I did a game for them.

Alyea (21m 41s):
And so that was different because in that case, I just interviewed the children, interviewed the parents to try to get the feeling for what the experience is like to have it. And the idea was to create a game that the children that have RA could play with their friends who don’t, so they could understand what it’s like to have RA. And so I did interviews and I also did research a lot of like a literature review to understand like any kind of qualitative research that has been done to understand the experience of how growing up with RA, what it’s like for the parents. And then from there, I just designed a game and then I playtested it and then we released it.

Alyea (22m 22s):
So it just sort of depends on the kind of work that I’m doing, but those are the two, the two types of ways that I go about. It

Rob (22m 28s):
Sounds very, very interesting and, and many, many keys to take away from that. Just a quick break before we continue, are you enjoying this podcast? If you’re listening through a podcasting app, please subscribe and rate us on the app. This will be of great help to reach more engagers so we can change the world together through gamification. And Alyea, what would you say we’ve, we’ve again, we’ve gone through failure, success, your process. And I mentioned this word before, I’m not looking for the golden mechanic or anything similar, but is there a best practice, something that you say, well, if you, you know, you think about this, you, you somehow incorporate this into your process, into your, your thought process or your, your project.

Rob (23m 9s):
It’s going to at least make it better. Is there such a thing as a best practice in your opinion?

Alyea (23m 13s):
I know what my best practice is. Yeah. So I think I’ve two elements to it. The first one is to listen, really listen to what your client’s needs are and what the needs of their clients are. And the second for me is intuition. So I feel that listening to where you could call it creative intuition, I feel like I tap into what Elizabeth Gilbert in big magic calls, you know, this big magic that we all can access with creative ideas. And so I sort of, I think my best practice is really listening in, as I’m listening, I’m tapping into this big magic and just kind of pulling ideas that would match what I’m listening to.

Rob (24m 2s):
Interesting. Interesting, very, very good stuff. And talk, talking about recommendations. We get into the recommendation space here is there after hearing these questions after, you know, getting a bit of the vibe of the podcast, is there somebody that comes to your mind, somebody you would like to listen to in an episode of professor game?

Alyea (24m 19s):
Oh, Okay. This is, this is a little bit challenging because I’d have to look through all your podcasts

Rob (24m 29s):
It’s possible. I mean, to this day we have over 150 episodes already uploaded. So I know that is a huge challenge. The top of your head, is there somebody that comes to your mind top of my head? I mean, I’m a good friend and I always use this example. It was like episode 10 or something. You said Miyamoto from Nintendo and like any, anything crazy can, can, it is accepted for sure. Yeah.

Alyea (24m 56s):
And I’m just, yeah, I’m trying to think like who, who would really want to have on the episode? I don’t know. I guess, I guess the first person that popped into my head when you said it, even though he’s like, my mentor would be like Yu-kai if you already had him on

Rob (25m 13s):
Yes. Yes. Yu-kai in fact, I mean, he is absolutely fantastic. I, I consider him a friend as well. We’ve, we’ve, he’s, he’s been in Madrid. He was in Madrid once, for a conference. And we got to spend some time together, but yes, Yu-kai was actually episode one, the first episode of the podcast was with Yu-kai. So that is a fantastic recommendation. I use him in my workshops as well. I use them, I use his theories and his ideas workshop as well. So yeah, absolutely. Yu-kai is a very, very good one.

Alyea (25m 47s):
That’s you have to come up with something fancier, like something more obscure.

Rob (25m 51s):
Yu-kai is fancy, he is very good. I mean,

Alyea (25m 55s):
And he’s so nice. And so laid back, he’s such a good person.

Rob (26m 2s):
Absolutely. Again, I mean, he’s his, I dunno, he, he there’s so much that he has to offer in fact, well, in fact, we had him in another episode then talking about, in this coronavirus environment, we were talking about his new framework. Well, one of his new frameworks called REMOTE for remote working. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that from him before actually. Well, there you go. That’s another episode you can listen to. Yeah,

Alyea (26m 33s):
Yeah, yeah,

Rob (26m 34s):
Yeah. That would be your recommendation for sure. A very good one as well. I use some of the things that you were mentioning as well when I’m teaching gamification and doing workshops as well. I also use part of that for sure, because it’s a very solid framework that has all the things that go around it as well. And again, more recommendations. What about a book? Is there a book that you would recommend to an audience like this one? Like the engagers?

Alyea (26m 59s):
Yes. I’m trying to think, like what would be a good, one second. I feel like I wanna like think of something really good because I feel like every, any book that I mentioned, people are gonna like, know what it is. Right.

Rob (27m 18s):
Well, that’s okay. And that’s even good. Why not?

Alyea (27m 22s):
Okay. Because of course the one that I read and I really love, of course, it’s Reality is Broken. That really was good, yeah. That was a really good book. And yeah, so that just came to the top of my head. And then of course I read lots of playbooks and corporate barrels.

Rob (27m 42s):
Jane is fantastic and she has books. She has the other one. She has Ted talks. I mean, she, Jane is absolutely fantastic. For sure. And she’s been requested as a guest as well before on the podcast.

Alyea (27m 54s):
Well, she hasn’t, she hasn’t, she hasn’t come on yet.

Rob (27m 58s):
No, no, she hasn’t had to be completely fair as well. I haven’t asked her directly, so I can’t say she said no or anything. So, I mean, at this point, we’ll see when we can have her on as well. That is a very good book. I actually have it in my bookcase right behind me, the yellow book.

Alyea (28m 17s):
That’s awesome. Yeah. It’s a very good book is one of my first that I’ve read when I got into games research actually.

Rob (28m 23s):
Yeah. It’s very inspirational. It has a lot of references. Very good for academic research as well, but it also has a lot of inspiration, like many of the things that you could do, like dreaming of the future as a very nice feature of that book. For sure. So it’s very, very inspiring. Yeah.

Alyea (28m 38s):
Yeah. In terms of like a simple, quick book. Yeah. You put me on the spot there. I should’ve thought that through a bit more.

Rob (28m 48s):
Absolutely. No worries. And, and now you are actually going to be in the spotlight for two questions. The first is what would you say is your superpower, that thing that you do at least better than most other people, of course, in the world of games, gamification and playful activities.

Alyea (29m 4s):
Well, okay. I’m going to be super honest with you that my superpower is fed into games and playful activities, but I wouldn’t say it comes from my skillset but from my background in games. Honestly, I feel like my superpower is prayer. That’s my superpower.

Rob (29m 22s):
There you go. Yeah,

Alyea (29m 26s):
Yeah, yeah.

Rob (29m 28s):
Alyea, the other one in the spotlight and this is actually going to be a difficult one. Right. Get ready. What would you say is your favorite game?

Alyea (29m 37s):
I knew you were going to ask me that everyone always asks me that. That’s such a hard question. Okay. I’ll tell you one of the games that I liked the most in the last decade. How about that? Yeah. So was actually by someone who I did an interview with and I really enjoyed his game. I think it came out seven years ago or maybe the app version came out six years ago, but it’s Gorogoa. Gorogoa

Rob (30m 11s):
Yeah, Gorogoa. I’ll try to write that one. Yeah.

Alyea (30m 13s):
It’s a, it’s really cool like a puzzle. It’s like a puzzle game. It was made by Jason Roberts and then he did it on his own. And later I think it was published in March of 2018 on Xbox One. So there you go,

Rob (30m 32s):
Gorogoa, one of your favorite games.

Alyea (30m 34s):
Yeah, one of my favorite. It was just so beautiful. It’s such a beautiful design. It’s so imaginative. It’s, it’s a puzzle story game in general. Like I like, you know, like more Indie-type games, you know, and I know it took them like four years to make it happen is just such a beautiful story. So yeah,

Rob (30m 57s):
Absolutely. It sounds like an amazing game. And before we go, is there, is there any final piece of advice you want to leave the engagers with? Of course, please let us know where we can find more about you. If you want to have some words as well about the playful creative summit. David also had some, somewhere’s your partner in crime in that sense before we say, of course, that it’s game over for today.

Alyea (31m 19s):
Oh, sure. Final words. I guess I would say if you’re listening to this who are probably in the game and play sphere, and I want to say thank you for being part of it because it is so needed in the world right now. And I’m very happy and thankful to also be part of it with you. Okay. In terms of where you can reach me, you can also, we can find me at my company website and my company, same as tinthue.com. That’s T I N T H U e.com. You can also find us at theplayfulcreativesummit.com with that will be a summit that will take place online.

Alyea (32m 5s):
Absolutely free April 21st through the 26th of next year, we will be inviting speakers, 45 speakers to come to talk to us about different subjects, including creativity, playfulness, games. I will have people from different areas, including makers, designers, game designers, clothing designers of, yeah. Any anyone that you can think of when you’ve been art artists documentarians. So we’ll see who will be there next year, but I invite you to come to join us. If that sounds like fun for you.

Rob (32m 41s):
Sounds like a lot of fun. We can find about that at theplayfulcreativesummit.com and find about tinthue.com. Right as well.

Alyea (32m 50s):
Yes.

Rob (32m 50s):
We can find more about you there. Of course, a big thank you to all of us. Who are creating things and involved in the playfulness and the gamification, game design sphere and bringing all these amazing things to the world. Thank you for that as well, Alyea, but at least for now and for today is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, Engagers. Thank you for listening to Professor Game Podcast. And I hope you enjoyed this interview with Alyea. Do you have questions that you would like to ask guests, future guests, that haven’t been on the podcast? All you have to do is go to professorgame.com/question and put your question right there.

Rob (33m 32s):
If it is selected, it will come up in a future episode and you will get your answer. And of course, before you click continue, remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

End of transcription