Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Steve Gullans on The Importance of Building Trust | Episode 326

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Steve is an experienced executive, venture investor, entrepreneur, educator, scientist, and author. He is co-founder and CEO of Thynk, a digital health company advancing innovative brain training video games for children and adults.

 Previously, Steve held various roles in academia and industry. He began his career as a professor at Harvard Medical School where he co-authored more than 130 scientific papers and was elected a member of AAAS and AHA. Subsequently, he co-founded and held senior positions in several private and public life science companies. In addition, he co-founded and was Managing Director at Excel Venture Management, which invested in over 40 innovative startups.

 Steve loves innovation and has spoken widely, including at TED, TEDMED, and TEDx and, with Juan Enriquez, he co-authored “Evolving Ourselves”. Throughout his career, he has focused on transformative technologies across many sectors of the economy and relishes opportunities to advance innovations that can help millions. He and his wife live in Boston and have 5 grandchildren who love doing STEM projects and playing Skylar’s Run.

 

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Full episode transcription (AI-Generated)

Rob:
Engagers. Welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast and we have Steve with us today. But Steve, are you prepared to engage?

Steve:
I am. It’s just going to be fun.

Rob:
Let’s do this. We have Steve Gullins with us today who is an experienced executive venture investor, entrepreneur, educator, scientist, and author. He’s a co founder and CEO of Think a digital health company. At advancing innovative brain training video games for children and adults, he has held various positions and roles in academia and industry. He began as a professor at Harvard Medical School, where he co authored more than 130 scientific papers and was elected as a member of AAAS and Aha.

Rob:
He also co founded and held senior positions in several private and public life science companies. He’s co founded and was managing director at Excel Venture Management, which invested in over 40 innovative startups. He loves innovation, has spoken widely in TED, TEdMed, TEDx, and with Juan Enriquez, he co authored evolving ourselves. Throughout his career, he has focused on transformative technologies across many sectors of the economy and relishes opportunities to advance innovations that can help millions. And they live in Boston, along with his wife and five grandchildren who love doing stem projects and playing Skyler’s run.

Rob:
So Steve, are we missing anything?

Steve:
I wear many hats. You can see my inattention to sticking with one thing as I wander from one thing to another. No, I think the overwhelming theme is two things. I love innovation and I love improving people’s lives.

Rob:
Absolutely. And that makes a lot of sense. So Steve, if we were to follow you around for a day or for a week, what would it look like? What are you doing? How does it feel to be Steve nowadays?

Steve:
It’s fun. I’m in the Medicare crowd, so I was retired for a few years. Then I came back to work because I had some more things I wanted to get done. And so I get up early. I get to our shared office because I love co working spaces filled with entrepreneurs.

Steve:
It’s very vibrant and I get my own work done very early before anybody else comes in. And then I communicate and chat with people. It’s a mix of phone calls, Zoom calls, and frankly, doing presentations to investors and potential partners. And in the interim, in my, quote, spare time. I actually advise a lot of ceos on their breakthrough technology companies, mostly in healthcare.

Steve:
But it’s gotten much broader over the last few years. And that’s just a part time advocation that I just relish because it’s my way of giving back. I’ve seen a lot of things get built and be successful and things struggle and we got to help the next generation.

Rob:
That sounds absolutely amazing. Lots of exciting stuff going on. But Steve, after seeing how superhuman you are in your intro and all the things that you have done and have been doing, we’d actually like to humanize you a little bit as well and get to learn from you from a time when things did not go well, a fail moment or a first attempt at learning, especially if it has anything to do with the technology you’ve been working on now with a video game that you’ve been doing and what is behind it. As we were discussing in the chat before, we want to be there. We want to learn and understand what happened.

Steve:
Well, we can go way back if you want. This is interesting. As a child, I moved every couple of years. My father was a successful businessman, which meant you were on the road, which meant I had to enter a different school system along with my sisters. And they never liked a smart kid.

Steve:
They wanted the one who could play sports. So there was always a lot of prioritization around. You play hockey when you’re in Michigan and you play baseball when you’re in Florida. So you have to be adaptable. And it was really that adaptable approach that got me where I am.

Steve:
And over time, I really appreciated the education as a route forward. It’s not ingrained in me as a person. It was more that if you want to do something interesting, you want to be around really smart people who are really focused on improving the world and doing good things. And that’s what took me very naturally into the education, ultimately becoming a professor myself. But at my core, because I was always the outsider as a child trying to make my way in the world, it was always about how do I bring new ideas forward?

Steve:
How do I actually adapt and figure out this system so you can think about it? If you don’t know how to read, how am I going to figure out how to get through this world? If I don’t know how to play baseball, I better learn. So it’s been an issue of focus, attention, and adaptability for me, and I think I bring that to everything. I do particularly think our new company.

Rob:
And how did like with that situation you were mentioning some of the things that you learned? What would you do differently? How would you start differently, perhaps if the same situation happened now?

Steve:
Well, we live in a very different world with digital communication and lots of online things. The thing that I relish about the old days is that you actually formed really strong bonds with friends because you had to entertain yourselves. And so you found a way to communicate and be very valuable within your peer network, but it was more detached from parents and teachers. There was more of an authoritarian approach to that. Today, I really like the idea that there’s more engagement across generations.

Steve:
When I do coach younger executives or even students about career path, I say reach out to older people because you don’t compete with them. They just want to give advice, just ask for some advice. And so I think this idea of having a mentoring approach to life where you’re not feeling, like, pushed away by adults, but you’re feeling encouraged by adults to find your own way and to enjoy their presence in a. Amazing, amazing.

Rob:
That’s definitely something that we can take away, and we could certainly use whenever it is, that we are creating the stuff that we create. So thank you for that, Steve. And actually spinning that around. How about we go for a story of success, something that actually went well, either the first attempt or whatever attempt. As you know, in entrepreneurship, there’s sometimes many attempts.

Rob:
And again, if it has to do with creating stuff that is engaging, video games, gamification, or anything along those lines, even a lot better.

Steve:
Yes, I’ve been involved in a lot of new activities that are technically driven. That’s fundamentally my background. So, as an academic, I was, for example, on the early wave of using DNA sequencing to understand biology. This is 25 years ago, and got to the point of actually raising money in Hollywood and Wall street for projects I wanted to do because I was motivated by a cousin with ALS and my father having Parkinson’s to actually step in and get something done thinking about treatment. This is at a time when the NIH did not fund what’s now called translational medicine, which is where the funding came from, these alternative sources.

Steve:
And so imagine that a lot of science is getting funded in those days. Today, we actually have changed things, but never directed at an actual cure or treatment for many diseases. I actually hired high school students from Boston Latin to walk over to my lab, and we went to the pharmacy and got every single pill in the pharmacy at the hospital and ground them up to test in laboratory models of human diseases unfundable at that time by the NIH. But it was groundbreaking in terms of, let’s open up some ideas that are not hypothesis driven, just what if something happened to work? And some good things came from that?

Steve:
On top of that, I was part of the team that sequenced the first cancer genome. We had to go to Malaysia to find the technology, which was neural network analytics, that even MIT hadn’t developed yet. It was a language translation software. So cobbling together different approaches, I would bring physicists into my laboratories. And in the business world, I’ve seen time and again that the traditional model for a new innovation, whether it’s going through the FDA or having to sell through Amazon, fails because someone doesn’t have the right look, the right feel.

Steve:
You guys have never done this before. The FDA has never approved this before. So sometimes you have to think about new business models, new thing, where you go to do a deal in China. You just have to be creative and adaptive to where in a very wide way, to everything that goes in the world. And so what I would say is my successes have been early technologies that work, and we find a way forward, whether it’s a traditional way.

Steve:
And my disappointments have been innovations that also work but cannot find a commercial path forward, which is really where we find ourselves in this brain training, video gaming world, is we have great technologies, but we don’t have a business model that’s been proven to work.

Rob:
Hmm. Good stuff to think about, for sure. Thanks for that, Steve, and all the experience that you’ve had, and it’s been plenty of time. And we were discussing that you were more into the neuroscience of some of these. Well, I know, I’m guessing that when you created your stuff behind think, did it through some sort of, I don’t know if I want to call it process or how did it go?

Rob:
If you were going to come up with something similar or help somebody come up with something like that, how would you do it? What’s the thought process behind this? I don’t know. How does it go?

Steve:
So there’s two elements, and the problem for both business people and scientists is they tend to operate in isolation. A scientist will say, I have a great solution for something, but has no idea what the actual business opportunity is and will invent, let’s say a video game for people who are very old, not sort of thinking ahead of time. They’re not very computer savvy, so it’s probably not going to work. And so I see these disconnects. And on the business side, we’ve actually seen some failures in the idea of games and brain training because it gets oversimplified.

Steve:
You have to prove something works technically before you can actually get people to adopt it. I’m talking about everyday consumer. Nobody wants to spend a nickel unless they believe it’s actually going to help them. So it’s crossing that divide in the early stages of the process that’s transformative. And that was really the challenge for the technology that think is involved with.

Rob:
Nice, interesting. Thank you for those insights. And it always gets you to think about what is the next step. Right? Like, should we go this way, should we go that way?

Rob:
It’s a series of choices all the time. And I don’t know, some people sometimes think about, oh, you do the plan and there’s all these things you’re going to do and you do them one after another and it hardly works that way. I don’t know if that’s been your experience as well. I’m guessing at least once or twice it has been that you think this is a linear path I’m going to go through and it’s never the case.

Steve:
No, absolutely. When you talk to inventors in their closed circle, that’s why I laugh when I get into a brand new startup with some young technical people, everybody around the table has the same perspective and assumes this works. So everybody’s going to buy it. We’ll have sales. I’ve seen revenue plans when I was an investor say we’ll be at 100 million sales in third year, when they have no idea what they have to do to get someone to buy the very first one.

Steve:
And in fact, I used to say, can you give me the names of the first three people who are going to buy this? And they would usually have no idea who it was because they’d never talked to a customer. And so as you think about how complex this is, when you’re doing something innovative, you have to start with a simple case that there’s lots of turn, like a beachhead or whatever. But in reality, it starts with a person who has never heard of this and you just, in a short five minute conversation, convince them, this is unbelievable. I want to get involved.

Steve:
I want to get involved. I want to buy it, whatever it is, and really sees how it fits into their world. I’ve spent some time in healthcare where it’s all about workflow. If you interrupt the patient journey through the hospital system, you have a losing product. If someone has to leave and get in their car and go somewhere or just turn on a computer, it’s very much a dynamic relationship between the technology you build and how it fits in the real world.

Steve:
I mean, in the example with our new technology is very busy. Parents don’t have time to teach their kids how to do it. So how are we going to adjust for that? There are lots of learnings over my career. And so one thing that’s beginning to happen in the digital tech space, healthcare space, is going direct to consumers always been a negative, and I can explain why.

Steve:
And so now we’re starting to say consumers are smart enough to figure out their own health. In Europe, they’re way ahead of us. They understand that using a digital device may improve their health, whether it’s just a reminder when to take their insulin shot or whatever. But the idea that this is just part of my daily activity and routine is not quite there. But we’re getting close.

Rob:
Makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. Thank you for those insights as well. Now. So, Steve, again with all this experience, when I say this, people sometimes think of a silver bullet, but that’s not what I’m aiming is.

Rob:
It’s just a best practice, something that you, you know, think of this or do it this way or include this in your thought process or something, and it’ll help you get to a better result or something better is actually going to happen. Do you have something like that along those lines in the world of entrepreneurship or the video game that you just created?

Steve:
It’s interesting. When I talk to entrepreneurs, I play this little game, and they don’t know it’s a game, but I think it’s cute. They come in and present to me whether I’m an investor or a potential partner or whatever, and I say, let’s start with the assumption that your technology is perfect and absolutely works. Let’s not talk about the technology at all.

Rob:
Now.

Steve:
Let’s talk about your business. It throws people off completely because their slide deck, the way they talk, 98% of it is technical, which is great, which tells you how it works, but it doesn’t tell you how much polar is in the market for something like this. It doesn’t tell you who the advocates are going to be on your side, who they talk to, whether it’s government or nonprofits or just other entrepreneurs who are helping. Let’s get the conversation outside the domain of the technology early in terms of your thought process as an entrepreneur. And this is going to be true in video game and everything else.

Steve:
You live in this little world, and at the end of the day, it feels like everybody’s going to buy it and nobody buys it. And then you’re stunned. And when other games, which look identical to yours take off and it seems like a mystery. Well, no, it’s one thing I do teach people, it’s all about trust. And if you only speak tech speak and you’re talking to a mother who wants to buy a video game, you’re not going to build a lot of trust.

Steve:
You have to talk about the troubles they’re having, getting that kid on the bus in the morning and things like that, and address those things. And that’s where we bring a lot of that know how and background to think. Thinking about the user experience, thinking about what the partner’s workflow is when we partner with a place that wants to engage with kids or adults or sporting or anything else. And once you do these kinds of relationship buildings, that trust works. Because everything about discovering and building the future, which is the field I’m in, is about trust.

Steve:
If someone gives you money, you’re not going to hit the plan you showed them. You’re going to do something to be successful. They have to trust you. If you’re talking to someone who’s going to be a partner traveling the world on your behalf to sell something, they have to trust you. And it’s this trust that can grow thin.

Steve:
In fact, one of my favorite observations is no matter who writes a check to support a small company, most ceos, I’m not going to label all, don’t talk to that person or that fund or that company again until they need more money. In fact, they’re the your biggest cheerleader and they want to protect. I write the longest blurbs to my investors and I already have trusting relationships with many of them already or with the partners because I want them to feel my excitement and that I care about them, which I do. They are my biggest champions.

Rob:
Totally. Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. And building that trust, it definitely goes for investors, it goes for your audience. Building trust is the thing.

Rob:
It goes for providers as well. Like when you’re discussing supply chain people who are supplying whatever it is that you need. You also need to build a relationship of trust and you need to trust them. They need to trust you. It changes the game, that’s for sure.

Steve:
Absolutely does. It does.

Rob:
After hearing these questions, if I were to ask you, is there somebody that you would be interested in hearing answering these questions in a future interview, sort of a future guest on the professor game podcast. Who comes to mind?

Steve:
The person who comes to mind is my co author, Juan Enriquez. He’s an all star Ted speaker. He’s written many books. He wrote one book with me and he thinks so far out of the box that it’s sometimes shocking. He’s not directly in the video gaming industry, but he travels the planet meeting with leaders in every industry and has a sense of what’s going on.

Steve:
He’s also one of the leaders in a group called Brain Mind, which is out of Stanford in the Bay Area, includes Reed Hoffman and Michael McCullough and a bunch of other leaders in brain science. Because we’re all aware that the business model’s broken. There’s brilliant neuroscience coming out of laboratories proven to work, whether it’s imaging or dealing with sleep or anything. But the world at large is struggling to see how they fit in and find a case. And that’s what the brain mind group is actually fostering, is an understanding of how do we actually impact the art world?

Steve:
How do we impact the world of meditation? These are all spaces. And often people say, well, health care is completely separate from everything in everyday life. No, they are totally blended when it comes to your mind and how we actually entertain and train and learn.

Rob:
Interesting, good stuff. Brain science. No, you mentioned Brainmind.

Steve:
Yeah, brainmind. Brainmind.org. It’s an interesting organization, brainmind.org.

Rob:
I’ll check it out for sure. And of course, right next to your book, or books, actually, is there a book that you recommend? The EngagErs, the audience that’s hearing US.

Steve:
Today, tHere’s one book I give to entrepreneurs. Everybody in my company has it. It’s a book. And this goes eons before most of your leadership ever even were born. It’s called stone soup.

Steve:
It was read to me as a child by Captain Kangaroo on a black and white tv. It’s a book. It’s in the Grimm’s fairy tale style, back when they used to put children in the oven as children’s. And so it has a little bit of a dark look to the book, but it’s about how do you actually change the world? And I spent a lot of time telling other PeOple this, especially entrepreneurs and my grandkids, when we wouldn’t have the Internet and airplanes and everything else if there weren’t people who believed in a vision in the face of every other person that they know, saying, I don’t believe you.

Steve:
And what that means in this book is it’s about three soldiers in it looks like Europe, marching through a town on their way home after a war, coming to the town and saying to the townspeople, meanwhile, know they’re coming, and they scurry and hide all their food, all their animals, all their blankets and everything, because they know that it’s Just going to be a plundering event. The soldiers get there and they say, we have no food. And the soldiers say, no problem. We’re Just going to make stone soup. And townspeople crowd around and watching a big kettle as they boil some water, and they throw some stones in, and the captain says, it’s getting warm.

Steve:
It doesn’t taste quite the way. I was thinking we could use some carrots. And someone says, oh, I have carrots. And then the next thing you know, it’s got meat and potatoes and everything in a huge festival. And so I love this book because it’s the analogy of every big project I’ve been involved in.

Steve:
Let’s try to do something that no one’s done before because it’s possible and because we need it. Like I was talking earlier about, let’s grind up every drug and just try them in every disease to see what happens. Why not try that? And in this case, why not use a video game to help kids who are struggling in school? And in this case, everybody in our company has taken this on as a mission.

Steve:
And every partner we have, whether it’s in marketing or manufacturing, feels the same way. This is too important for it not to happen. Meanwhile, there’s lots of naysayers who say, I don’t believe in it’s not going to work. We let’s let them go to the side. We’re going to have a big feast at the end of the day because of the simple analogy of we’re making stone soup.

Rob:
I do remember that story. I love it, but I had never thought of it let’s change the world kind of thing.

Steve:
And the world doesn’t have to be the whole planet. The world can be your school or your local community or whatever it is. If you have an idea, and I really encourage my grandkids, literally, if you have a good idea, let’s talk about how you’re going to get people involved. Don’t be disappointed when everybody says no. That’s the way it starts.

Rob:
Absolutely. I love it. I’m not sure if it’s the spin or if it’s just me. I saw it too young and nobody helped me on that metaphor. But I love it.

Rob:
I love the story. I’ve always liked it. I’ve used it in different shapes, but that’s definitely an angle I had never even considered.

Steve:
Struck me so much. I think I was five years old when I first I carried it with me my whole life. And nobody reads that book to kids anymore because it’s not entertaining by today’s standards. But anyway, it’s fun.

Rob:
Totally. And we’ve talked about those recommendations. The book that you recommend, what would you say is your superpower in this world? That thing that you do, at least better than most other people?

Steve:
My one superpower is finding creative innovators and getting them to literally join my bandwagon or getting them to think outside the box in a way that’s productive and beneficial. And it’s a trick I learned early on. When you’re a new kid in every school you go to, when you’re teaching at Harvard and everybody’s a brilliant student, the power of asking questions is the number one way you get to the heart of any problem that somebody else is involved in. And I’ve learned to use it in positive ways and in negative ways. You can take someone down a few notches if they’re being arrogant by really pushing their knowledge to the limit or just extrapolating to places where it makes no sense.

Steve:
But at the end of the day, just asking questions of people is a way to get to know them, a way to get to know what they’re thinking and what you don’t know. And my mother taught me this. She said, if you have your mouth open, you’re not learning anything. She was right.

Rob:
Yeah, that’s why the one that they say that they gave us two ears and one mouth, there’s a reason for that. Good one, good one. Very, very useful superpower and so many applications that we could immediately think of for sure. So, Steve, we get to a difficult question. I know you mentioned you’re not a gamer, but I’m sure that you here and there a game, and especially to get a little bit of inspiration for your video game, too.

Rob:
What would you say is your favorite game?

Steve:
So there’s a couple of answers to that. I grew up in an era when obviously video games didn’t exist. We were just beyond sticks and rocks, to be honest. In fact, I had a great comment from my five year old grandson the other day because I was trying to explain. I actually gave a commencement speech once to 6th graders at a private school in the UK about the future of toys.

Steve:
It was so entertaining because I had a collection of toys from the just showing them how things evolved. And I was telling my five year old grandson, when I was a kid, all the toys were made out of wood and metal. We never had plastic, we didn’t have any of it. And he goes, pop, pop. Was your computer made out of wood?

Steve:
And I said, there’s great logic. So I grew up with board games. Obviously. My favorite was always stratigo, and I’ve now actually gotten it for my grandkids. They love playing with me, and it’s a really good, challenging game of strategy and it has multiple dimensions to it.

Steve:
I also did a lot of puzzles as well, particularly word puzzles. When the first pong and all of those games first came out, I enjoyed them, but they were like Tetris. The early generations were all very boring, and since I tend to jump from one topic to the other in my life, it wasn’t something I was going to sit with. But once my kids got old enough to get on a laptop or a desktop, we started playing video games. And there it was.

Steve:
Enjoyable because there were early events of trying to teach a little reading and things, but it was so frustrating with how slow it was and non engaging. But nonetheless, I saw the power of how a gamification, which is what you guys talk about all the time, is such a powerful approach to engaging people. And I actually began to incorporate it in some of the things I was working on in my teaching experience with medical students is how do we actually engage people, which I won’t go into, but making science and medicine more interesting. I was actually making them predict what was going to happen in case studies, rather than responding to what’s going to happen. And it’s really pushing the envelope of how you get out there now.

Steve:
I went to the Game Boy eras, and in fact, I often give a lecture about the parallels between the biotech revolution and the IT revolution. And they’re in sync with a 28 year offset, which I could go into at another time. But we’ve seen things come and go. We’re really at the point where brain science is now coming in to impact the it space in ways that are unfathomable to be at the extreme, but in an everyday sense, are very, very useful because it makes use of principles of how you actually engage and help people, along with principles about how you deal with the mind and improving the way we use our minds and the way we age and the way we learn. No one is born with the ability to focus, pay attention, have a short term memory.

Steve:
You have to learn this. And in school, for the first time, you notice when you ask a kid to sit down and do something that little Jimmy can’t do it. Our little Marilyn’s having troubles. And that’s a lot to expect, that you go from a world of total play to a world of sit and look at this piece of paper for the next 30 minutes. So I think we have a lot of opportunity here.

Rob:
Huge opportunity. And thanks for all that. The game strategy, I think I haven’t played it now my curiosity is piqued because I think I’ve heard of it. And then where you extended towards was definitely super interesting. I just sat down, I’m not taking notes because it could be noisy.

Rob:
But the good thing is this is going to be evergreen. It’s always going to be there, so I can listen to it many times.

Steve:
Great.

Rob:
Steve, before we finish the interview, is there anything, any final piece of advice where we can find out more about what you’re doing, about think, or wherever it is that you want to lead us?

Steve:
Yeah, well, where I want to lead you on this is a couple of things. We have a game called Skylar’s run, and we have a headset that monitors or measures brainwaves. Completely passive, no different than wearing a hat in terms of its impact on your brain. It’s just listening. It’s just a microphone.

Steve:
And the video game is driven by your thoughts. So it looks like my grandkids play subway surfer. It looks the same. It’s an adventure game. It’s got 15 missions.

Steve:
And at its core, it teaches 13 different cognitive skills that every human being must master in order to read and write and play and drive a car, fly an airplane. And we all learn at different rates. We can all improve. And as we get older, we can use it even more. And to ground this, if we go back to Lord Kelvin, for those of you understand Kelvin temperatures and science in the 18 hundreds, he had one very simple, truthful statement.

Steve:
If you don’t measure it, you cannot improve it. What measurement does any member of your audience have about their brain’s health and function today? I mean, you’ve been, you had your body weight, your health checkup, does every possible thing. You can get your vision tested. We know every single number.

Steve:
We know nothing about our brains. Our video games, monitoring your attention state every one 10th of a second, because brilliant scientists and engineers put it together. And all we’re doing is capturing that signal and saying, if we can get you to focus on the game, the avatar is going to run faster. It’s going to only based on your thought. And with that simple practice, which we know for sure transfers into better grades, into better focus for sports or anything, is everywhere we look.

Steve:
Having these core abilities is what was going to be key. So at a broader level, all these neuroscience tools and these non invasive ways of looking at our brain are here. We are going to have a revolution in how we combine these two worlds of neuroscience and gamification. And it sounds brilliant.

Rob:
Thank you very much for all of that and keep up doing the great work they are doing. Steve, for sure. Okay. However, Steve and engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over, engagers. It’s fantastic to have you around, and as you know, this podcast really makes sense, thanks to you.

Rob:
So how about we connect on LinkedIn? You can let me know of many things. Anything you want to let us know, anything you want to follow, questions, future guests, whatever you want to tell us, you can find us as Professor Game on LinkedIn. And as you know, we’re always sharing our content on gamification on the podcast, especially around learning. And before you click continue, remember to subscribe or follow, which is absolutely for free, using your favorite podcast app, and listen to the next episode of professor game.

Rob:
See you there.

End of transcription