Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Sean Delaney and What’s Fair in a Business Game | Episode 353

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Skyrocketing businesses with a game? In this exciting episode of the Professor Game podcast, we dive deep into the mind of elite business consultant and gamification enthusiast Sean Delaney, who shares how he helps businesses go “further, faster, funner” with innovative strategies. Sean reveals his journey from Fortune 500 consulting to empowering entrepreneurs, detailing his unique process for creating impactful, game-based business solutions. Whether discussing a challenging early experience or a major success with a Fortune 50 company, Sean offers invaluable insights into making business both enjoyable and transformative.

Sean Delaney is an elite business consultant, speaker, podcaster, and coach. He has worked with clients from the Fortune 500® to solopreneurs, solving some of the biggest to some of the most pervasive problems every business faces. Whether it is as a Fractional COO, the co-host of his Podcast “The Ether,” or as the “Disruptor in Chief” in his “anti-mastermind mastermind,” his focus with Whadif is to disrupt current business thinking to transform businesses of any size into joyful and thriving impact generators. Before turning his attention to helping entrepreneurs, Sean’s client list included MetLife, Nike, Uber, Johnson & Johnson, AIG, and Jet Blue (among others). He has taken that experience and now helps entrepreneurs massively accelerate their business’s growth with his unique, holistic business model system, the HARMONIOUS Business Architecture TM. With his unique blend of knowledge, experience, and humor, he has helped businesses of every size strengthen their operations, innovate for the future, and scale “Further, Faster, Funner.”

 

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Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, engagers, and welcome to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have Sean with us today. But Sean, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Sean Delaney:
I am prepared to engage like nobody’s business. Let’s do it.

Rob:
Let’s do this. Let’s go. We have today Shawn Delaney. Is that right?

Sean Delaney:
Yes.

Rob:
Sean Delaney is an elite business consultant, speaker, podcaster, and coach. He’s works with clients from the Fortune 500 to solopreneurs, solving some of the biggest to some of the most pervasive problems every business faces. He has been a fractional COO, the co host of his podcast, the Ether, or the Disrupter in chief. In his anti mastermind mastermind. His focus on what if, which is a company he is leading is to disrupt current business thinking, to transform businesses of any size into joyful and thriving impact generators. Before turning his attention to helping entrepreneurs, his client lists included MetLife, Nike, Uber, Johnson, Johnson, AIG, and JetBlue, among others. He has taken that experience and now helps entrepreneurs massively accelerate their business growth. With his unique holistic business model system. The harmonious business architecture trademark. With his unique blend of knowledge, experience, and humor, he has helped businesses of every size strengthen their operations, innovate for the future, and scale further, faster and funner.

Sean Delaney:
That’s true. Yes. Rob, that’s beautiful. Who is that guy? He sounds interesting. Did I write that? I don’t think I wrote that, but that is a beautiful introduction. Thank you, Rob.

Rob:
Amazing. Amazing. So, Sean, is there anything we need to know about you that we don’t know yet, or should we dive into what your days look like?

Sean Delaney:
Let’s dive into my days. Let’s dive into them.

Rob:
What do you do? What’s up? If we wear your shoes, what would we do? What would we feel like?

Sean Delaney:
So, my days. Oh, what would we. That. What a wow. You’ve, like, fired three really loaded questions at me. What’s the day like? I wake up at 05:00 a.m. pop out of bed. I do the three, two, one countdown to make sure that it’s like, up, out, reassess where I am. I read a little scripture or something motivational. I get my head right, and then before the world is up, I open my calendar, I see what’s ahead of the day. And then I open my notion platform to see all that project management stuff. And then what do I do? What do I do all day is I talk to business owners about exactly what you said, how to go further, faster, funner. And so I disrupt their thinking. I’m having interesting conversations with people, blowing a hole in what they think. Conventional wisdom, business wisdom, is telling them to do. We find that 20% that’s going to get them the 80% lift so they can do less, achieve more, and that’s what I do. And that’s on I. And then I attend podcasts, run my mastermind, and show up in places and coach people so that they can make their dreams happen easier. And game theory is a big part of that because that’s what we’re talking about, right?

Rob:
Awesome. Let’s do this. Let’s see what games can teach us for business. So how about we go for a story? Story. When you were thinking of game theory, making things fun or something along those lines, and it just didn’t work out, or at least not initially. Of course, there’s always ways to pivot and do stuff, but we want to be there in the hard times, right. You know, one of those times, it’s like, oh, my goodness, what am I going to do? We want to be there with you. We want to learn those lessons as well.

Sean Delaney:
So here’s a. So here’s an example. When I think about this, I don’t want to date myself, but I was thinking about fun and inculcating that into business back in, like, 2000. So I’m at a meeting at this point in my career, I’m working at MetLife, and we have a big strategic planning meeting. And one of the directives from leadership was when you orchestrate this thing, also make it fun. Great. That’s why they put me in there, because they know that I love fun. So that’s why. That’s why the symbol of my shirt in the D in what if is a play button. Because play has to be a part of everything you’re doing, right? You like that? Yeah. So, and it’s on the upside and question mark, because questions give us access to answers anyway, whole different discussion. But let’s stay on the point of early loss with. With games. So they’re like, make it fun. So I have this grand idea that we’re gonna do at this meeting instead of just reading off the results of senior leadership’s decisions on what they think or votes on what they think we need to do going forward for the next year. They had all submitted these answers. They said, let’s do family feud, and we’ll divide the room into two teams. We’ll have senior leaders come up and we’ll say, and what is the number one thing that we need to sell next year to do? Blank bing. They buzz in and then the answer comes up. Great. Would have been a beautiful and a great way to have people voting on. And then the teams getting together. What do we think is the next biggest idea? Because they all really know, right? They’re all senior leaders banging together. They know what each other’s goals are, things they don’t want to do. Right. But this is a fun way to get them to get that out and talk about the answers. Great. Except here’s the problem. Now, this is 2002, so, you know, we’ve got live buzzers and we don’t have any software, really. We’re cobbling this together with spreadsheets and PowerPoint. And I have a junior associate. It’s her first job at a college, and she’s sitting there with this thing. And so a senior leader will come up and say, you know, downstream, you know, market capitalization. And she has to then translate that sentence into what one of the aggregate answers was. And she has no idea. Right. So then she hits the. Okay, now this other team wins. This is the way family feud is. Goes back. Now they’re answering all the questions. They get 50 points. And at the end, when they reveal the answers that no one got, that guy’s answer comes up, but it’s not the way he said it. But the entire room knows that’s what he meant. And she’s sitting there, and now this guy stands up and goes, I said that we should have had this whole category. Now I’m running a game where she’s my employee. I can’t crap on her and be like, well, you know, Megan, you did the wrong thing. Of course she didn’t do. She did everything right. But I’ve got a whole room saying this game is unfair. And this is like, this. Dude, it’s the second topic. We got, like six more to go. She’s now panicked and beaten. The room has lost my trust. The game’s over. The game’s over. Like, we’re gonna go through the exercise, but it’s not a game anymore. Now it’s just a. We’re doing this right.

Rob:
It’s gonna be road.

Sean Delaney:
Yes. So that was a. I never lost my love for the fun or the games, but I realized, well, there’s some elements you just gotta account for. Right?

Rob:
Anyway, so it was a bit more on the planning, you know, that sometimes these things we like to talk about nowadays. Of course, maybe not in 2002. I’m not sure we’d like to talk about playtesting.

Sean Delaney:
Yes.

Rob:
Maybe playtesting here could have. Could have solved, you know, some of the issues there.

Sean Delaney:
A thousand percent. That’s. I mean, that’s it, right? So beautiful.

Rob:
These things happen, you know, this is part of what happens when you’re doing things. And it could be fun and games or it could have been. You could have been doing the most serious meeting and then the meeting notes, this came up, right. It could have happened just the same thing. Just that, you know, it didn’t have a fun thing around it. And the problem would have been almost exactly the same one. Right. Same thing would have happened. So, Sean, thank you very much for that story, for opening up and, you know, giving us a peek into that difficult time where you went through and some of the lessons you took from that. How about we go for the opposite one? How about a time when, you know, things just did go well? We want to hear that success, of course, be excited with you and know a little bit more about what made it happen.

Sean Delaney:
It did go well. All right, so I can’t say because of NDAs, I can’t get into the exact company, but think fortune.

Rob:
No need to say company specific names or anything like that.

Sean Delaney:
I think Fortune 50 shoe company. How’s that? I mean, okay, so we were doing a project, and it’s where I launched this. This game that I had developed over the years that was. I called it the yellow brick road. And so. And so it was taking a project or an issue and creating this game where we had the protagonists, where people in the room had to assume roles of those going down the yellow brick road. So you’re going to take the role of we’re not strong enough. I don’t have the strength. Right. Or we’re not smart enough. We need to learn more. What don’t we know? Or I’m not flexible enough, because this is the way the world is. Right, okay, so when we took those different roles and had people wearing those hats in the meeting, and then we have other people, right. The. The other denizens of this world, right, of Oz would. Would talk about the flying monkeys, okay, because the witch was the thing that we can’t get past. We know what the Emerald City is. The Emerald City is life beyond this problem. What are we trying to get to? And the thing standing in front of us is the witch. This insurmountable problem that has magical capabilities and is somehow making us believe that there’s no way to get to the other side because it’s not true. And then what are the flying monkeys that are plaguing us along the way? Well, you know, we’re going to have to deal with this. Yup. Flying monkey. What else is sapping the strength and energy of this team? Well, we’re going to have to dip another flying monkey. Great. And then we have to come up with a plan to at least ameliorate all the flying monkeys to level up, get a past the witch to get to the Emerald City. And I have to tell you, the place, when this whole exercise is done well, that it gets the energy of the people, it gives the naysayers a place. It gives the people who are rigid a place and they can have fun being in that place of no oil can.

Rob:
Right.

Sean Delaney:
That’s what they say. Right. And so when they say. When we say can we do right? And so Rose is sitting there. She’s been here for 48 years. She. There’s. It’s no way it’s going to work. We go. So, Rose, now is this. What’s, do you feel confident in this plan? Oil can. So we know that she needs a little more juice. What would make you think that it’s going to work? And this is a. It is a beautiful game and, and sort of event that helps a team gel, have fun and get to a place that they never thought they could have gotten to before, which is the whole point of the wizard of Oz.

Rob:
Awesome. Awesome. That sounds very, very exciting. And now that we’ve seen you coming up with at least two things, one that didn’t work. One that didn’t work. You have plenty of experience. You’ve been doing this for years. I’m guessing that when you have to create something, an experience, sort of a game or whatever, for these companies, you follow a set of ways of doing it, a process, steps, I don’t know, framework. How do you do it? We want to get into your mind for a bit and see what that looks like.

Sean Delaney:
I love that. So I haven’t really ever laid it out. This is a beautiful access you’re giving me as. I’ve never really laid it out as a process before. I was asked, how do you do it as a process. But essentially these are the elements that I’m, that I’m playing with. I think first about what is the mission of whatever we’re trying to change. Right. Because there’s two kinds of games. There’s games that are just for fun. There is no point to playing a card game of war with my son because other than the fun of it. Right. Because there’s, there’s nothing happens at the end of it. There is no outcome that no one’s changed at all, really. It’s just the essence of fun. Then there are the games that are to change something. And so those are, I’m going to make a game of becoming a marathoner, or I’m going to make a game of business metrics, or I’m going to make a game of weight loss. There are. There is a resultant outcome that we’re looking for. So there’s two in my mind. I don’t know how you think about this. I would never tell the professor how to think about games, but how dare I? But I think there’s like two kinds of games. The ones that are, the intent is solely for the enjoyment of the game. And then there are games that are also to change some kind of change reality, make an outcome in the world. And so when we’re talking in business to business leaders, how to game ify, how to pull in games to business, you have to understand that you’re not just playing for fun, you’re playing for stakes. And once you’re playing for stakes, fairness gets elevated. Because I played the game and it wasn’t fair is the genesis of all feelings of loss.

Rob:
It means something entirely different, right.

Sean Delaney:
If I play Uno with my son, no one feels like they lost. Even when they lost, it was fun and there was a winner and loser, but you don’t feel it. As opposed to business stakes, where once emotions they’re in the outcome are there, you have to pay homage to those emotions. So the first. So the first step is, what is the mission and what are the stakes around it? Great. And is every player equally attuned to that mission? So that’s the first thing. It’s sort of core value. What are we doing and who are we to align? And then the second thing is, do we have the right players in the game? Because to be inclusive, the game has to match the player and vice versa. And so who is best optimized to be here? So we at what if now have a business partner, humanop, where they can, in a ten minute diagnostic, tell you exactly who you are at your core and what energizes you does not energize you, where you like to play in the world, which is beautiful, again, because we’re all about playing. So as long as I know the purpose of the game, the players I have in the game, I can design a game that will achieve that mission of not just being fun, but moving us to a different state. And then, you know the pieces that you have available to you to create a game. Like, what are the things? I want to move people from this mental state to this mental state. I need a game to do that. Then I need to transition them from here to there. I need them to acknowledge what hasn’t been working and then accept a new reality. Well, then we have some tools there, and so you move them along, which is what any great game does, even open world games, is they lay out whatever, whatever process you want to get to get there. Like Red Dead redemption two, right? Like, we know there’s no point. What’s the point? I’m living in the old west. What’s the level? Do I have to do anything at any particular time? No, you play according to how you want to play and experience it. How you want to experience it. But you’re getting to somewhere, right? We’re not just for an hour riding a horse. We’re going somewhere, right? Or are we not? So for me, it’s the game that, you know, that’s the difference. Are we playing gin rummy with my son and no one wins anything? Or are we playing the game of leveling up our business, developing a new product, getting rid of the problem in marketing where nobody’s playing together? Well, like, whatever the insurmountable thing is, let’s surmount that together. Let’s make a game around it.

Rob:
Sounds great. Thank you very much for that sneak peek into your mind, your process, into what you are an expert, an absolute expert at doing. Sean and Sean talking about, you know, you talked about your process, but I’m sure that there are things that you’ve seen along the years and with your experience that, you know, when I do this, things go, you know, better. When I don’t do this, things go a little bit worse or a lot worse. What could be like a best practice or something that you say, well, if I have to consistently do this, because otherwise the process, the result is going to suffer.

Sean Delaney:
Yeah, I think one of them is if you’re using, we’re still talking about gamification. If you’re using that to do things, make sure you’re not orchestrating, designing the game to orchestrate the outcome. Because if you’re like, well, I want everyone to get to this place, so we’ll play a game to get them there. That’s manipulation. That’s not playing the game. Right. And so if the game is, well, there are a myriad of outcomes, and we’re going to let intelligent players play the game according to the rules and see where the outcome comes, then, as long as it’s structured fairly. No one should have the sense of loss. This is true of any negotiation, politics, anything, right. Like, if we believe the game was fair, then we’re accepting the outcome. And if we don’t, then the players don’t want to want to do it. They don’t like it, they don’t accept the outcome. Right. So are we engineering the game in order to get an outcome, or are we allowing all players to play fairly and have whatever outcome comes? And so if you’re a business owner and you’re trying to say, we’re going to use a game to come up with our next year’s big strategy, and I really want to make sure it’s this go to market fast strategy, so I’m going to make sure that all the numbers line up that way. Now you’re manipulating people and using fun to do it. And I call Bravo Sierra on that all day, every day. Like, that’s be, you can’t know it, but if you’re you, because that is not fun. That’s manipulation. Right.

Rob:
And so, and it’s not ethical. What is, what’s in it for me? Right. See the players there also to get something out of the game.

Sean Delaney:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think we need to understand those energies, those dynamic human dynamics of the players in the game, because it’s not just a logic puzzle. I love this about game theory where it’s like, you know, you’re assuming rational players. I’ve never met a rational player ever. Have you ever met a rational person, Rob? I’ve never met somebody who doesn’t have filters and layers.

Rob:
And predictably irrational is what Ariely would say.

Sean Delaney:
Right, right. Predictably irrational. Exactly. Right. So we gotta account for that.

Rob:
Cool, cool. Love that. The fact initially it was like, well, you know, of course, you know, there has to be an objective. Right. But the objective is not something that is fixed in stone, is what I’m hearing from you. And that’s where I like, oh, yeah, that one not only understand, but I stand behind as well. It’s, you know, there has to be some. Some degrees of what people can and can’t do and where they can and cannot get to. Right. It’s not just what you decide as a designer. Right.

Sean Delaney:
Yeah.

Rob:
I think that there needs to be this kind of thing. And this involves, of course, the client as well. So thank you.

Sean Delaney:
It’s the seed of innovation. It’s the root of innovation. It’s like, you know, lightning, unencumbered or unobstructed, is deadly. But lightning in a glass is a light bulb that powers the world. And so you need to have a framework. We want to allow people to be wildly innovative, but within the context of the game that we’re doing, so we can contain it, capture it, and then channel it somewhere. And so that’s essentially kind of the dynamic we’re doing. It’s like, let’s set. Let’s set the guardrails, then unleash them into the world in the paradigm of the game that we’re setting up, and then channel it back into some kind of useful innovation afterwards. That’s the innovation process that we also teach.

Rob:
Yeah, interesting. Love it. So, Sean, we’ve been talking about these questions. You’ve heard a bit of what the podcast is about and such. Is there somebody that comes to your mind that you say, well, I would be interested in hearing this. That person being interviewed in the podcast answering these questions, let’s say a featured guest for the podcast.

Sean Delaney:
100%. So, Wei Hong, I will send you his contact information. He is the CEO, visionary leader of Human op. That new partner that we have that does that diagnostic on the human being, gives you essentially a roadmap, an owner’s manual for who you individually are and how you can show up best in the world. He would blow your mind. Rob, you’re gonna love having way on here. I’ll be very. I’ll be disappointed in you if you don’t. If you don’t have him on this show. He’s amazing. He’s gonna blow people’s minds.

Rob:
Sounds like a very good recommendation indeed. And keeping up with that, how about a book? Which book would you recommend? Again, we are people here who are thinking of games in a different way. Not just entertainment, as you said at the start, but using them or their strategies for something else book.

Sean Delaney:
Well, let’s. Hey, let’s do a visual here. Let’s do it.

Rob:
We are also recording on camera for one of the few times that we’ve done this before. So he is showing on screen what he will describe right now, the alter.

Sean Delaney:
Ego effect by Todd Herman. It is incredible, and it is about who you need to be. So imagine in a game, if we’re gamifying things, what’s your avatar? Who are you who needs to show up to get this mission done? And I think it is a really important part of gamifying anything to think about. I can actually be somebody else in this game. I can hang my. Whatever, my disharmonious feelings, thoughts, lenses at the door and come into this room and achieve these things that I can be this person in this game, and it is a beautiful, beautiful example of luminaries and visionaries and people we all respect and admire who have done that very thing, who have created alter egos as part of their weapons in the world to achieve their visions. So I highly recommend it.

Rob:
Hadn’t ever heard of that book, but I have to say, you say that, and I think immediately of a friend and fellow gamification expert, Andrzej Mychevsky. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. The Hexad user types. And, and the book, funny name, it’s Ninja monkeys like to play also. Ninja monkeys like to play or something like that.

Sean Delaney:
Okay.

Rob:
The book is very, very good. It’s very deep. It’s very serious in the end, but it has its whimsy as well.

Sean Delaney:
On the title, he wanted to serious in whimsy. I love it.

Rob:
He wanted specifically. It’s funny, we were talking once, and one of the things he wanted was to see in a very serious paper, doing research and stuff, somebody quoting only also ninja monkeys like to play. So you’re always expecting an article that is very, very serious and that kind of stuff. But here, you know, he wanted to do have this book quoted exactly that way.

Sean Delaney:
So that’s great.

Rob:
And he has a unicorn edition. So if you, if you want to.

Sean Delaney:
Take it even further, Unicorn edition is great for anything. Sirius Whimsy was my exotic dancer name back in the day. I’m kidding. It’s not true. But that would be good. Serious whimsy.

Rob:
We have to do a short on social media, starting with that.

Sean Delaney:
Let’s go with it. Let’s lean in. Serious flimsy. She’s got attitude. Watch out, Rob, alter ego. Sorry. We’re like getting meta with our meta. All right. It’s amazing.

Rob:
Sounds great. So within this whimsy world of fun and all these things, what would you say is your superpower? That thing that you do at least better than most other people. And remember, you know, Thor can fly, you know, Wonder Woman can fly. There’s many people. Well, those are different universes. But anyways, there’s many people who can fly, many people who are really strong. It doesn’t have to be unique. Where would you stand there?

Sean Delaney:
I think for me, if I’m talking about if it’s a superpower unique to me and whether I, Superman, can’t teach anybody to be Superman, right? So I think when I think of Superman, like, superpower, that’s kind of like the, this is the thing. So for me, it is access to that fun energy in the middle. So I can be. You know, there’s typically, like, a wheel of emotions that people have to go through in order to get to a certain place. And so wherever they’re starting from something, they kind of have to move from angst and into worry and then into sort of hope and joy. I’m really, like, speeding up the level. Right. Or the layers. Right. There’s, like, many layers to those emotions. I have been told, by way, our partner at human up, that I have the access to humor, which is sort of the ether in the middle that allows you to jump from one thing to the other. So I am that person at the wake who can deliver a speech that will. Yes, people are crying, but then also have them laughing at the appropriate points in order to move people through the emotional space that they need to move. And so in projects similarly, we can move people past the blocks if we jump to humor, because we don’t have to go through 19 other steps. And so finding the fun and the joy and this sort of spirit of it’s all okay. Life’s happening for us and not to us. And so it’s all okay.

Rob:
It’s all, life’s happening for us. I like that one.

Sean Delaney:
Yeah. And so that’s my superpower, that at any given moment, no matter what the situation is, no matter what the stakes are in the game, I’m the one going, it’s. It’s okay. It’s gonna be okay.

Rob:
Cool. I like it. I love it. Very useful, especially in this industry we are in.

Sean Delaney:
Yes. Yes, sir.

Rob:
What will be your favorite game? And don’t tell me the yellow brick road. Something you didn’t create. Something to say?

Sean Delaney:
Have I already tipped my hand? It would be something I granted. No. So it depends. So, like, video games, I like. I like open world stuff, like redemption two. Or, like, it’s a. There’s an overarching kind of thing we’re achieving, but do it however you think best. I like those kinds of games. And then, you know, and then we’re talking not video games. I like. I like the super simple games. I like playing Uno with my kids, you know, where it’s clear who’s winning, losing, and it’s random, and we can all have fun during it, and there’s no context or, you know, nobody’s gonna get. Nobody’s going to bed crying because they didn’t win the game. Right. So I like the son, but. So it’s. I like those kinds of games. The ones that it’s open, honest, and inclusive, anybody can play it right. And then at the higher stakes, you know, I like the games that, that really matter. I like the ones where you can play them and get a massive win for them, you know, so which is why we gamify things like strategic planning for companies or their project management solution that, you know, and how to do projects. You know, we make that a game and we’re changing the world. Mandev, I like that kind of thing. But. So from standard games, you know, I would say red Dead redemption and battleship. How’s that?

Rob:
Sounds cool. Sounds very, very cool. Thank you for that. Sean, we’re arriving to the end of the interview. Of course, we don’t want to let you go before you tell us where we can find out more about what if your work, whatever it is you’re doing, any call to actions, any final piece of advice you have for the engagers, our audience, now is the time.

Sean Delaney:
Yeah, so two things. So if they wanted to hear more from me, we have podcasts and we have a mastermind. We have all kinds of things. We have that diagnostic that’s free, that’ll tell you in eight minutes where the big major sticking point is in your business. That’s not helping you scale further faster, funner, you take that, just go to whatif.com with a D. That’s how we say it in Jersey. What if? But it’s also the D is an upside down question mark. Cause we turn questions on their head and it’s a play button. Cause we love to play. So whatif.com w dash a dash.com and you’ll get access to us there and all the kind of wild, wacky stuff that we’re doing and so that you can scale further, faster, funner. Cause that’s what it’s all about. Right, Rob?

Rob:
Awesome. Love it. Thank you very much.

Sean Delaney:
And the last piece of advice, if you are getting stuck in not seeing the possibilities of things, you know, a childlike innocence is the greatest, is the greatest place to be. And we can’t always get that when we know the stakes of the game. So when things are really dire and grim and the stakes are there, ask a kid. Explain the problem to the child as you would explain it to a child, and you will get a childish answer in which the nugget of truth will be found. And you will be amazed at the wisdom of children when you explain it to them because it forces you to distill things down. If I have to explain something to my six year old, I guarantee you by the time I’m done explaining to him in a way that he understands it. I now finally understand it.

Rob:
You actually understand it better. It’s one of the things when people sometimes say, well, you know, teaching and all the things that come with teaching as well. When you teach, it’s not just about what you get other people to do, right? It’s also about yourself. You need to really understand what’s going on for you to be able to.

Sean Delaney:
Every interaction with other people is a mirror, and you either see it or don’t.

Rob:
Totally. Totally. So, Sean, thank you very much for joining us today. I know you have plenty of things to do. All that work that you’re doing, that is amazing. But you came here, you distilled some of that knowledge for us, for the engagers here. However, Shaun, however, engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go to professorgame.com freegamificationcourse and get started today for free. After that, we can also be in contact and you’ll be the first to know of any opportunities that we can have for you here at professor game. Remember also, before you go on to your next mission, remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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