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Tore Olsson With What’s History on Red Dead Redemption 2 | Episode 359

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Can games like “Red Dead Redemption 2” help overcome stereotypes around subjects like history, making them more immersive and relatable? In this episode, we delve deep into the transformative role of video games in education. Our guest, an expert in integrating existing video games elements into learning environments, shares how gamification can make education more engaging and effective.

Tore Olsson is an associate professor of history at the University of Tennessee, where he teaches and researches American history after the Civil War. He is the author of the new book Red Dead’s History: A Video Game, an Obsession, and America’s Violent Past (Macmillan / St. Martin’s Press, August 2024), which uses the fictional content of the Red Dead Redemption games to explore real dilemmas of violence in American history. He’s a long-time gamer and believer that games can help teach us big things.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is professor game, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking who brings the best of their experience to get ideas, insights, and inspiration that help us in the process of multiplying engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez. I’m a consultant and founder of the Professor Game and professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business School, EFMD, EBS University, and other places around the world. And if this content is for you, then perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free@professorgame.com. freegamificationcourse all one word. Professorgame.com freegamificationcourse hey, engagers, and welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. We have a special guest today. You’ll see many of the reasons why very, very soon. But Tory, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Tore Olsson:
Very much so. Thanks for having me here, Ralph.

Rob:
Delighted to have you here. Tory Olson is an associate professor of history at the University of Tennessee, where he teaches and researches american history after the Civil War. He’s the author of their new book, Red Dead’s History a Video Game, an obsession and America’s violent past with Macmillan St. Martin’s Press from August 2024. And he uses the fictional content of the Red Dead Redemption games to explore the real dilemmas of violence in american history. And he’s, of course, a longtime gamer and believer that games can help teach us biggest things. So probably that’s one of the big headlines as well here, Red Dead Redemption. But is there anything you want to make sure that we know before we dive into the regular content, so to speak, in the podcast?

Tore Olsson:
Yeah, I think that video games are so powerful in teaching us so many kinds of things, but history is very much one of them. And I think there’s too many stereotypes of history as being associated with old dusty books and kind of boring memorization of names and dates. And that is so not history. History is this crazy, dramatic, living, breathing thing that we can learn in so many ways. And for me, learning and teaching via video games is not just fun, but really, really emotionally impactful and generates a lot of enthusiasm among my students and hopefully readers as well. So I’m just excited to talk about all the details.

Rob:
So, Tori, engagers, engagers, you may have heard of this before, I’m not sure, but during my school and high school years, I was the opposite of a history lover, like the way they taught me history. And I’m not blaming my teachers, because they all did exactly the same. So that was sort of the method, right. What they were teaching us. And at this point, this is 2024, I’m 39 years old. What they were teaching us is to memorize dates and to memorize specific events and to memorize where the rivers were at, where this or that battle happened. And that was, you know, which president came after which and, of course, in which year. That was what history used to be about. I realized not long after that there were other ways of seeing history, and that history was more than a collection of dates and names. Right. That you could, all these stories, you could live them a bit and they could be very, very exciting. So I, I agree with you entirely that history can be something else. But I wouldn’t like, I wouldn’t put the blame on sort of collective intelligence in that sense. It’s literally, it’s been pushed down on us in the worst ways, at least in my generation. In my, I’m from Venezuela. That’s what happened to me. And I’ve heard many other people having similar experiences. I literally, that was one of the worst subjects for me is that in biology? I’m not sure why. I never liked it, never enjoyed it. I wouldn’t, would have never become a doctor because of that, probably. But history was like so boring, and I had to memorize things. And I hate it, just memorizing things for the sake of it, because I knew I would forget the, I understand the purpose.

Tore Olsson:
Like, what’s this all? And, you know, a lot in a lot of countries, history is often taught in such a way to make good patriots, to make people proud of their country, to make them, you know, perhaps willing to lay down their life for that country. It was an exercise in nationalism and patriotism. And having grown up in the United States primarily, I can say this is very much true, that the sort of punchline of every historical story was how the United States was uniquely great among the nations of the world. And im not trying to say that the United States is not exceptional in some ways, but sometimes that punchline is not correct. Sometimes theres elements of any nations history that don’t look all that attractive or all that sort of satisfying and rewarding, but we should also acknowledge and dive into that history, not just the sort of backpacking, feel good moments in a nation’s past, because then if we only focus on that, we erase a lot of what actually happened in the generations behind us.

Rob:
I agree with you. However, if at least that would have been achieved through, through the looking of the history in my generation, I would even say, I think that would have served as at least a little bit better than what we got. I mean, today many things have changed as well. Many things have improved, but that view of just simply wrote memorizing was literally the worst I can think of that it could be. Honestly.

Tore Olsson:
You have to give people a framework to hang stuff on, right? You have to give them a reason to care. And I think that’s where video games can come in, because they can give you that sort of emotional attachment and hook that will kind of convince you to be interested. But sometimes knowing a few dates is necessary, but it’s much more necessary once you. It’s much more easy to memorize it if you actually care about what this all means.

Rob:
Now you find a sequence in a story and all that. But anyways, we’ll dive into a lot more of this for sure. I just wanted to know very quickly, what is being Tory nowadays feel like, what are you doing on a day to day basis? What’s your regular, I don’t know if routines or not, that depends on the individual, but if we were to follow you around for a while, what would it be like?

Tore Olsson:
Yeah, well, you’d find me teaching, you’d find me writing, and you’d find me playing video games, because all those things really come together in creative ways, for me, at least. So I’m a professor at a large research university in the United States, and my primary undertaking here is to write books. That’s really mainly what I was hired for, which I enjoyed doing greatly. And then as a secondary responsibility here I teach classes both at the undergraduate and graduate level. And until four years ago, video games was not part of my daily routine. It was part of my high school routine back in the 1990s, some 25 years ago. But only in the last four years, only since the Covid-19 pandemic, have I really integrated video games really closely into my teaching and writing. And there’s really a single video game that allowed me to begin this experiment, and that was Red Dead Redemption two, this historical video game that set in 1899, which came out back in 2018. It’s about to celebrate its 6th birthday, actually, but still widely beloved despite being now six years old. And early in the pandemic, I played Red Dead two and really just picked it up for fun. It was not for professional reasons. I just heard the game had great graphics and very interesting storytelling, both of which were very true. But I kind of came for the graphics and stayed for the history because I’m a professional historian who’s trained in precisely the time period that is captured in Red Dead Redemption two. And though, of course, the game is fictional, and though, of course, the game, its primary mission is not to teach history, it’s to entertain you. It’s an entertainment commercial blockbuster more than anything. I was really surprised, while playing this game, how frequently the game would gesture towards some of the biggest dilemmas in american history in the sort of 1880s, 1890s, 19 aughts time period. And I thought, well, you know, given that the games open a conversation about things like corporate capitalism, like the women’s suffrage movement, the memory of the civil war in the American south, the place of railroads, and knitting together the american economy, if the game touches on this stuff, it never fully explains them. But since it touches on them, what if I were to use this in the classroom as a way to get students excited about learning american history? And it turns out that in 2020, when I was first entertaining this idea, no one had tried this before. There had never been a college history class that really foregrounded the video games, the Red Dead video games, as a way to teach late 19th and early 20th century american history. So I was very kind of surprisingly, the first to undertake this experiment. And the class launched in 2021 for the very first time with great student interests. Right. The enrollment in this class was significantly higher than other classes of this type that I’ve taught in the past.

Rob:
Makes sense. Makes sense. We always ask about both a story of failure where you try to integrate video games, or anything along the use of games in your classroom, you know, it didn’t work out, or a situation where it didn’t work out. It doesn’t have to be the whole thing, and then we go for success. But I feel like here, there’s a bit of a mix in there. I’m not sure if I’m reading that right. So can you. Can you sort of briefly get us into what that looks like? You know, again, we want to follow a bit of that story with you and get a bit of the, you know, the lessons, the do’s and do, the do’s and don’ts, essentially.

Tore Olsson:
Right, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, basically, the way that the integration of the game worked in my class is that it would primarily serve as a hook. It would primarily serve as a way to open a class session and get students excited about the topic. And then the majority of the session would be spent unpacking the kind of traditional history behind it. So very often in a lecture, let’s say I was giving a lecture on, let’s see, the convict lease system, the chain gang system, the idea of prisoners that are being rented out to companies to do service for them. This was a really prominent part of us, especially us southern society in the late 18 hundreds. So if I’m giving a lecture on the convict lease system, I would begin the talk by showing gameplay footage from Red Dead Redemption two. Because there’s convicts in striped uniforms bound together by chains. This is a common sort of thing that players observe in the countryside of the american southern portions of that game. So we would watch, I don’t know, two or three minutes of gameplay from the Fred Dead two, and then I would take the opportunity to explore. Okay, well, what did convict leasing really look like in the American south? What does the game get right? What does the game get wrong? And I would thread it into a larger discussion about big questions about politics, about race, about money and power, which are very familiar to a regular history class. But the way that they’re presented is by using the games content to shape what the topics we were going to explore and how we explore them.

Rob:
Nice. Again, was there any time where either that or something just didn’t work out? You tried it out, and when you put it in the classroom setting, we have all these expectations. We think we’re in the heads of our students, and we’re really not. We have to test things out. Any of those times, it just didn’t work, and you had to adjust.

Tore Olsson:
Pivot, right? Yeah. So my plan throughout the semester was to use YouTube footage as my primary way to engage the game. Right. Mainly cutscenes. Right. Red Dead two is a game that has a lot of cinematic cutscenes within it, and that’s where a lot of the storytelling takes place within the game. For me, as a teacher, I usually use Microsoft PowerPoint as a way to display slides in front of the classroom. PowerPoint nowadays makes it very easy to embed online videos, like YouTube videos, into the slideshow. So it’s very easy for me to integrate a few minutes of video footage without breaking a sweat in the classroom. But I came to realize that there’s really some topics that I can’t do that with. There’s some topics that I had to actually play the game in class with them. Like, I had to bring. I had to load up the game on my laptop, I had to bring a controller and then play the game live with them. Now that was really fun for them. They really enjoyed seeing me do so. They also get to see that I’m not a very skilled gamer because I would accidentally kick my horse instead of trying to get onto it. Accidentally fire my revolver into the air when I wasn’t at all trying to do that. But it did. Playing with them. Got to explore some questions that YouTube videos couldnt get at. For example, I was really interested in the kind of major city in the game, which is called Saint Denis, clearly supposed to be New Orleans, in 1899. I was interested whether in the game there are visual representations of racial segregation, like separate drinking fountains, separate entrances, separate waiting rooms, part of this system of racial apartheid, which was very much coming into shape in the United States at that time. So we walked around the city, like me and the students, for about five minutes, trying to find markers that say for white, for color, these sorts of things, and we didn’t find them right, which was kind of a failure. That also allowed for us to talk about, would this have been accurate or not? Right. So what is the history of Jim Crow segregation in the American south, and how much of that would we have seen in 1899? That’s a moment with our inability to find something within the game. Also produced this, learning moments of sorts.

Rob:
Interesting, interesting. And I’m sure, I think we discussed this over email before we got here. I’m sure you were working on your next project. This has been a huge success. You might even talk about your audiobook and who’s narrating that, which is super exciting. I’m sure we can get to that in a bit. You know, assuming that you are working on something next and that there’s going to be something after that, I’m guessing that with this experience that you had from Red Dead redemption, maybe you’ve done something else. This one that you’re doing probably have sort of a way of arriving at this. How do you do it? Like, if there’s. Is there a process? Do you have some steps? I don’t know. Like, what does it look like if I told you, look, I have to do this, but not for american history, but I have to do it for, I don’t know, for roman history. And let’s use the. I think it’s. I forget that, the assassin’s creed, for example. Would you recommend me how to approach it? What would I do if that were the case? Or of course, if it’s any other subject that maybe you can draw from that.

Tore Olsson:
Yeah, exactly. So for me, writing a book, like read, that’s history, was very much made possible by teaching the class first, because the class is sort of a dress rehearsal, a book version, because it allows me to try out a bunch of ideas with. With non experts. My students, usually 18 to 22 year olds who are interested in the material, often interested in the games, but are not trained in the material whatsoever. Theyre smart, but theyre not deeply versed in the jargon of academia. I get to force myself to be able to explain things on a level that makes sense to them. I cant rely on the sorts of catchphrases of the academy. I have to speak in plain language and make things accessible to them in that context. And I found that doing so and kind of leaning into my storytelling abilities in the classroom really helped me write a better book as a result. So basically, in 2021, when I finished my first version of the write that history class, I began thinking about, okay, well, how can I make this sort of journey that I took my students on? How can I make it accessible and engaging to wider audiences beyond just the University of Tennessee where I teach? And I knew that a book could be the way to do so. I began working on this book, and then, as you mentioned, brav, the book just came out last month. And it’s interesting, it’s sort of a full circle effect, because this book started as oral lectures of my own in the classroom, and now it’s being primarily consumed orally as well because more folks are listening to the book rather than reading it. There’s lots of folks reading it, too. But I do think the statistics show that more people are listening to the audiobook version of Red. That’s history. And part of that has to do with the narrator, the choice of narrator that we got to line up for this, which is Roger Clarke. And Roger Clarke is the actor who played Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption two. Right. So he’s the main protagonist. And Roger re narrates the book sort of in character as this late 19th century cowboy, which works really, really well. And to people who’ve played the game, which is more than 60 million people at this point, that voice and making Roger Clark your sort of new american history teacher, has been really, really effective. So people really respond well to that and recognize that this video game outlaw is actually a really good american history teacher. Of course, Roger didn’t write the book. He’s a brilliant guy, but he’s not a trained historian. But I was able to write the book and then deliver it via his brilliant acting and narration in this really exciting oral digital format. So it’s been so much fun working with him on this.

Rob:
Sounds brilliant. Sounds brilliant. That’s great, great stuff. And I’m sure it’s going to sort of bring up the curiosity of many, even if you’re not studying american history even though you’re not american. Right. There’s interesting to figure out things. But then if you played the game, maybe even finished the game, at least for me, it always happens when I finish a game. It’s like, well, I think I want to have more. Sometimes I don’t play the sort of these segments that it has even within the game. I say I’m gonna, but this is sort of a segue where, you know, you’re getting something that goes beyond playing the game, which is something that we always aim for when we were thinking about gamification, game based stuff. And, you know, it’s more than pleasing. Right. That goes well beyond pleasing to have. Continue having that voice because you’re still sort of. You might probably be sort of still in the game in many ways. Right.

Tore Olsson:
People want more, especially with these big, vast universes like the Rockstar games. Many people finish with a sense of disappointment that there’s not more to dive into. And while my book is not a video game, I don’t pretend that it is. It can help fulfill the sort of urges to use the game to learn bigger things. I think many people will finish that game, read that, too, and think, wow, what an incredible video game. What a great story. But how much does it actually say about America in 1899? And the game doesn’t fully answer that question. Right. It’s not an edutainment title. It is an entertainment title. So a lot of people are left with question marks afterward wondering, well, did I actually learn something about the United States? How could I use that knowledge? And that’s really the goal of the book, to be the sort of companion to the video game to help figure out what it does well and how it does it well and what it doesn’t do well as well. But I hope that the game, you know, that the book really not only enriches people’s playthroughs, but also inspires future playthroughs that people want to do it again once they have this knowledge on their side that they wanted to undertake the journey of the van der Linde gang one more time.

Rob:
Interesting. Interesting. And, Tory, all this has been fantastic, and I’m sure people are not curious about your book. You’re working on another project. With all this discussion that we’ve had, I know you’ve listened to a few interviews as well. Is there anybody that comes to your mind that you say, well, I’d be curious to listen to this person answering these questions. Sort of a future guest for professor game. Is there somebody that comes to your mind in that sense?

Tore Olsson:
Yeah, that’s a great question. One of the writers, I mean, so when I was writing this book, I was looking for models of other people who are writing smart stuff about video games, you know, because there’s a sense that, you know, gamers don’t read. There’s a stereotype that gamers don’t read and it’s really not true. I mean, there’s certainly some gamers that don’t read, but there’s a lot that really love reading too, and see it as a sort of, you know, a companion to gaming rather than a sort of replacement for it. And in thinking through this, I was looking for models of other writers who do a very good job with this. And I would say that my favorite so far is Jason Schreier. Jason Schreier is a journalist for Bloomberg and writes about video games for them. And hes also written a number of really interesting books about the history of the video game industry. He has a new book coming out on Blizzard, the company that made Warcraft and Starcraft and a whole range of other massive titles, which is coming out in a few weeks. And if you were able to get him for your podcast to talk about his research on, he’s not a historian, but he looks at the history of the game industry and its internal dynamics and looking at it as a business more than anything. So yeah, Jason does really, really great work. Cool.

Rob:
Sounds like a very interesting one. Definitely. And keeping up with that recommendation right next to your book, what book would you recommend the engagers to have to bring to their libraries and to make sure to, whether it’s getting direct inspiration or whatever you want to aim for, what book would you recommend and why, of course?

Tore Olsson:
Wow, that’s a big question. You know, I’m going to recommend a history book just because I love history books and it’s what I use to write my own book. I’d make a plug for my favorite public facing history book of the last five years, which is called how to hide an empire.

Rob:
He’s showing it on camera. For those of you.

Tore Olsson:
How to hide an empire by Daniel Immervaar is a story and it’s really brilliantly written, funny, eye opening, engaging. It’s a real page turner. He basically writes a story of how the United States tried to disguise the fact that it was an imperial power in the style of Britain or France or Russia in the last 150 years. Because 100 years ago the US had tons and tons of colonial possessions, including the Philippines, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, a whole range of other islands and spots around the world. And Imravars book tells the story of how did the United States try to airbrush away this history so that it could show that it was different and better than these european colonial powers around the world. So it’s a beautiful book and it’s a bestseller. It’s just a lovely place to get interested in history. If you enjoyed my book and want something kind of similar to it, there’s video games too. It talks about the origins of Sony. Why does Sony come around in Japan? What is its connection to the american occupation of Japan? There’s so much to learn from this book. Cool.

Rob:
Sounds like a very good one, for sure. Thanks for that. And if we were to talk about this whole world of using video games and learning gamification and all these things, of course, in your case, it would be history or be a subset of history, or it could be history as well. What would you say is your superpower? That thing that you’re able to do better, at least than most other people?

Tore Olsson:
I think that I am my current superpower, which I feel I rarely use such strong words, but I’ll try to toot my own horn in that respect. I think I’m unusual in that I take video games really seriously, and I don’t think all that many academic historians do. So I think they generally kind of write off and see the gaming industry as juvenile and silly. And I think that there’s a lot of really interesting stuff going on there. And then on the other flip side, I think that I’m fairly good at making academic history come alive for video gamers. Right? Like most video gamers have minimal exposure to the sorts of nitty gritty work that professional historians do. But I feel like in the last couple of years, I’ve been able to make students care about subjects that they might not have had otherwise. Right. Questions of land ownership in the American South. I mean, why would anyone care about that? Well, it was actually tied up with the bigger questions of who’s in power and what kind of society were they making. So I feel like I’ve had some pretty good success in translating, serving as a go between, an ambassador between these different worlds, right? The sort of ivory tower of academia on one hand, and then this kind of large, unruly world of gamers across the world. I’ve really enjoyed being a sort of middleman between those communities. I don’t know if it’s a superpower, but I don’t know. It’s something for sure makes a lot.

Rob:
Of sense that it seems to be very, very useful for the work that you’re doing. And as I say, every now and then, if you talk about superpowers, sometimes you think, well, I’m not the only one who does it. Some people say, of course, maybe, but Thor flies and Iron man flies as well. And there’s many superheroes who fly in the Marvel world. And then you go to the DC world, and that happens as well. Doesn’t have to be absolutely unique in that sense to be a superpower. It just has to be something that, you know, other people don’t do as well as you. There’s actually a quote from somebody I’ve been following for a while, a completely different podcast. And he says that when he studied, he studied law, actually, for a while. And one of the few things he took away from that, he quit on doing that, he didn’t, he decided, was not his career, was that in the court of law, you know, an expert is anybody who actually knows more than anybody else in the room. So that’s the expert, right? So you sit in many, many, many rooms and be the only person who even knows about this. You know, if somebody knows, you’ll probably still be the one who knows the most. So you’ll be an expert, or you’ll have that superpower, depending on who you ask. Tori, tough one or maybe not so tough one. We’ll see. What is your favorite game now?

Tore Olsson:
It’s funny. People might expect me to say Red Dead, redemption two. And I do love that game. Obviously, I’ve played it for more than 200 hours at this point. But the game that really converted me to taking video games seriously again. I’ll give a little lead up here before I say what game it is. So backstory. In high school, in the 1990s, I played so much video games. I was just completely obsessed, completely addicted. But then when I got to university, I quit. And I really quit for, like, 20 years. Throughout the first two decades of the 21st century, I was really not playing games. I was studying. I was reading books. I was, I don’t know, doing other stuff. But when the pandemic hit, I bought a new gaming PC and decided to kind of dip my toes back into the water. And it was really one game that fundamentally convinced me that video games are a totally different thing now than they were when I was a kid. There was one game that really opened my eyes as to the levels of nuance and subtlety and humanity that a game could showcase and drum roll. That game, the first game that I played in the pandemic before Red Dead Redemption two was the Witcher three. The Witcher three. It’s now on the top ten best selling games of all time. It’s made by a polish studio called CD Projekt reduced absolutely unbelievable masterpiece of a game and just really blew my mind as to the levels of complexity that could be possible in a video game when it came to storytelling and acting and world building. And it was really on the heels of that game that I picked up Red Dead two because Witcher three convinced me, wow, open world games, they’re the way to go. And then the next game I played was Red Dead two. And then I ended up teaching a class and writing a book about it. But in the back of my heart I kind of wished I was teaching a class and writing about the Witcher three. But I’m not an expert at either medieval eastern european history or dragons or anything like that. So I don’t know how I would approach that one. For me, Red Dead was a much easier fit. But yeah, that’s my favorite game as of the moment. What about you?

Rob:
They’re like, depending on the one where. Where you ask or when you ask. Many people tell me this and I said, yeah, but you have to narrow it down. And I get why I have to push for that because it’s really difficult to narrow it down. But, you know, from the perspective you brought in, I would definitely say that from the same people who did Red Dead redemption. I got back into gaming through my ps four with grand theft auto five. I got. It came with the PS four that I got. I hadn’t played like you said that. And it’s like literally at the university I almost quit. I wouldn’t say quit. Quit smoking. If you grab a single smoke, you’re back on it. I didn’t fully. Every now and then I did play. I did get invited to play Nintendo 64 when it was already an oldie by some friends. And they did that every Friday, I think it was. So I did occasionally do that, but I didn’t. I used to be, I had a console at home. I played almost every day, if not every single day. It was different in that sense. It changed. But after I got my PS four, it was like I was back on console gaming and video games. So that could be a game that sort of got me back into this.

Tore Olsson:
Whole, what a wonderful coincidence, because I’m currently playing GTA five. I was playing it 3 hours ago at home, in fact, this morning, because I’m preparing for another class and book, this one, which will use the Grand Theft auto series as a window to understanding the transformation of the United States in the past 50 years. So I’m envisioning a book called Grand Theft how the GTA video games can help us understand a divided and unequal nation. So this is what I’m currently cooking away on. So maybe just wait a little while and we can have another conversation about this.

Rob:
Sounds super exciting. Totally, totally exciting. Tori, thank you very much for all these insights, all this stuff that you’ve been giving us. We have a, you know, final, a final few words if you want to have any where, of course. Can we find out more about you, about the book? Anything you want to lead us to, any call to actions or anything similar. This is the right time. And of course, any final words before, before we say goodbye?

Tore Olsson:
There’s a lot of smart video gamers out there and we need to take them seriously. That’s what I’ve learned in doing this project and it’s been a fun ride to get to know some of them and to prepare content, educational content of various sorts, for these smart, curious and enthusiastic gamers out there.

Rob:
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you very much, Tori. Where can we find out more about you and your book?

Tore Olsson:
I’m on social media, on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, usually under my name, Tory Olson or Red Dead history. You can also just google me and find my faculty website at the University of Tennessee and write me an email, send me a message more than happy to exchange ideas and talk to other folks doing similar kinds of work.

Rob:
Awesome. Thank you very much once again, Tori, thank you engagers for being here, for listening to this, for your comments, your ideas, anything you’re looking forward to. However, Torian engagers, at least for now, and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey engagers, and thank you for listening to the professor game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you? Just go to professorgame.com freegamification work course, all one word, professorgame.com freegamificationcourse and get started today for free. After that, we will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that professor game might have for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of professor game. See you there.

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