Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Murray Gray Turns Courses Into Missions | Episode 360

If you’re struggling to keep people engaged and loyal in your product or business, check out my FREE gamification course to learn how to do just that: bit.ly/freegamificationcourse-web

Learn how storytelling, achievement recognition and immediate feedback can turn passive content consumption into an active, engaging learning experience. It’s a fascinating conversation about the journey of integrating gamification into online education. Our guest, a seasoned entrepreneur, shares insights into how his latest venture, Experiencify, has revolutionized the way students learn by employing a gamification-first approach. If you’re struggling with student engagement in your courses, this episode is a must-listen.

Murray’s a serial entrepreneur with a single, simple focus in life. He loves building software platforms that make life easier for course creators, business owners, educators, trainers & coaches — basically, anyone who sells their expertise or needs their learners to engage and learn. Right now he’s obsessed with fixing online education using gamification. Online education is an industry that’s seeing HUGE growth right now, and at the same time, it’s the only industry with a 97% student failure rate. His latest project is called Xperiencify – the world’s only gamification-FIRST online course platform, which is solving the problem using gamification, psychology, and ideas borrowed from Silicon Valley. His team of gamification advisors has worked with companies you may have heard of like Google, Tesla, Verizon, Porsche, LEGO and many more household names.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez, a consultant and the founder of Professor Game and a professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE business school, EFMD, EBS University, and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, if you’re struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make sure your users stay with you, perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free in the links in the description. Hey, engagers, and welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have Murray with us today. But Murray, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Murray Gray:
I am very much prepared to engage, and I’ve got my engagement cup with me in case you can. You win.

Rob:
Absolutely love it. So Murray’s a serial entrepreneur with a single simple focus in life. He loves building software platforms that make life easier for course creators, business owners, educators, trainers and coaches. Basically, anyone who sells their expertise or needs, they’re learners to engage and learn. And he’s obsessed with fixing online education using gamification. Online industry is an industry that’s seeing huge growth right now, and at the same time, it’s the only industry with a 97% student failure rate. And his latest project called Experiencify, the world’s only gamification first online course platform, which is solving the problem using gamification, psychology and ideas borrowed from Silicon Valley and his team of gamification advisors has worked with companies that you may have heard of, like Google, Tesla, Verizon, Porsche, Lego, and many more household names. Probably includes a past guest, which you might hear mention very, very soon as well. So, Murray, is there anything outside of that intro from what we already mentioned, that you, we want to make sure our audience knows about you before we get started.

Murray Gray:
That’s fantastic. It really summed it up. And chronic video gamer from back in the OG days of video gaming when it was Pac man and it was Galaga and all those things. So really grown up in this and really loved talking about it.

Rob:
Amazing. Amazing. So, Murray, what does a regular day or week or what does it feel like to be Murray nowadays? If we were in your shoes, what would it look like?

Murray Gray:
I am a software guy. I think growing up with computers and computer games and hacking my own games together in code with MS DOS and basic and all those things, it really led me to a technical kind of life and my days basically being technical. I wake up and I work on whatever software project that I have going on right now in my life. And the one I have right now is, as you mentioned, it’s called experienceify. And we’re bringing gamification, among other cool things, to the world of online education.

Rob:
Sounds awesome. That’s great. So, Murray, we always start with the tough question, right? We want to learn of a story that you’ve had in this world of gamification. Maybe with experience. If I. Maybe before that, I don’t know. It’s up to you, right. Of your, what you might call your favorite fail or first attempt in learning when it went sideways, essentially, we want to be there in that story. You don’t have to name any names if you don’t, if you don’t want to. We want more. What the experience was, what were your lessons learned and what you maybe would do different if, if the situation came up again.

Murray Gray:
What a great question. Um, I think the answer I’m going to give you is kind of, um. It’s, it’s not my fail in learning, but it’s, it’s alert. It’s a fail that I saw as a result of a fail. So let me explain. So I’ve been creating online courses since 2001. I was releasing online PDF’s and educational materials and courses in the mid two thousands. And my wife and I, my business partner, wife and I, we’ve been creating lots of courses in the world together since 2011. The one thing that we’ve seen in all that time is that we’d create these amazing courses and these amazing training products and we would put them out into the world and not many people would get through them and finish them. And a huge proportion of them would abandon the course, sometimes before they even opened the course, sometimes before they got through the first lesson, certainly before they got to the end. And we went back to check our numbers and we realized it was somewhere like 95% of the people who bought a course from us didn’t make it to the end and didn’t get the results that they wanted and that we promised. And for us, that was not okay because someone’s paying us like a couple hundred dollars for an outcome that they want in their lives. We want to make darn sure that they get that outcome, and we’re going to do everything we can to help them get that outcome. And that’s what really led us down the road of all things gamification, all things psychology, all things apps and games, and just to see what they’re doing to get so many people almost addicted to their screens. I think that is the right word. It’s addicted. And we took a bunch of lessons from those really interesting industries, and we applied them to the experience that we were creating with our courses. And what happened was just amazing. We went from a 95% abandonment rate to a 30% to 70% completion rate overnight as we started to apply some of the lessons that we took from the world of gamification and Silicon Valley and all those things. So that is my fail, right? We stumbled into the same problem that everybody else stumbles into when they start to release education. They put out this stuff into the world, and they’re not doing everything. They’re not doing the right things to help their student. Like, take action, keep taking action, be motivated to get to the end and get results. So that was our biggest fail.

Rob:
Awesome. Awesome. I just. There’s one thing I mentioned when we talk about addiction, and I know Yukai chao talks about addiction as well. I mentioned this especially when we talk about Yukai, and this term is, there might be people out there, behavioral psychologists or psychologists in general, that say, well, addiction is a. It’s a big term, and it is. Right. Um, what I’m sure Murray is trying to say here is, you know, that that feeling of you’re almost getting stuck to your screen doesn’t necessarily have to be get too addicted, because, again, it has a negative connotation. Right. Which is not where I’m sure experience ify is leading people with their online courses. But it does have that element of, you know, you’re glued to the screen is another expression I’ve heard quite a bit. So, Mary, thanks for sharing that experience. And, yes, you know, you’ve been doing it for a while as well. You read about when MOOCs came into being, the whole expectation and then the results of huge drop rate as well. And trying to change that is definitely a big mission that you guys have, and hopefully, you’ll be at least a significant part of that solution to that humongous problem that there is out there. And, Murray, maybe it’s part of the previous answer that you gave us. We want to jump into something that’s 180 degrees spin from that. Well, it’s actually somewhere where you guys did succeed. I don’t know from the get go or with iterations. We again want to be part of that story. Maybe again, it’s a completion of the previous story that you were telling. Maybe what were some of the success factors that you guys might have had? We want to, again, once again, be there with you and live a little bit of those difficult times and how great the result was when you got out of it.

Murray Gray:
Yeah, I mean, you’re right. It was the end of the fail story. You know, we failed, and then we figured out, hey, wait a second. If we borrow a lot of these techniques from the world of games and apps, then we can help our students really feel motivated and empowered to take action and keep taking action all the way through to the end. So that’s really our big win and the success that I’m most proud of. We were one of the first to. To really take a research based approach to figuring out what’s going to work psychologically for people to get them to want to go through a course just as much as they perhaps want to go and find a Pokemon or just as much as they want to go and not break their streak in Duolingo. So that’s, I think, what I’m most proud of.

Rob:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And is there, of course, you turn your heads towards gamification and psychology. Are there any key success factors that you might want to name that were part of that, that way of getting to that conclusion or some of the things that you actually implemented? Is there anything that you would like to highlight so that the engagers can take some of that stuff, some of that stuff home?

Murray Gray:
So are you asking if I can sort of reveal some of the different techniques that we’re using in order to do that?

Rob:
Maybe specific techniques or how you got there? Like, what was one of the things that you did got you to that conclusion? Again, if you don’t want to reveal any trade secrets, which is.

Murray Gray:
Look, I love to talking about this. Yeah. So, basically, we discovered there are ten core experiences that you have to create with a course or a training or any kind of online experience that you want people to really be engaged with and want to have more and more of it? So the. We call it the experience formula. And there are ten experiences or core experiences that we found during our research, and I’m happy to make these available in the show notes if you’re curious to have a look at all ten. I won’t be able to talk about all ten today, but I can talk about maybe just a few of the ten of the core experiences that we found. Does that sound cool?

Rob:
Sure. Let’s maybe have a two or three. Whatever you think is a good focus. And, of course, engage as a. Remember, you can go to professorgame.com. you put in the search bar, you put Murray. You’ll definitely find the show notes to this episode and get all of those juicy details.

Murray Gray:
Great. So the first thing that we did was, do you remember back in, you know, that one of those original video games called Karateka? It’s a, it’s, it’s this story of this young karate student who is going to progresses along and defeats all the enemies and the big bosses and finally gets to the castle to rescue the princess. So that’s the story of this really one of the original video games called Karateka. And I was, you know, I was really, really, I really loved this game, so I played it a lot. And the one thing that they did at the very start of this game was they rolled like a Star wars style thing, you know, many years ago in a galaxy far away. That’s not a thing, but they roll the story of what it is you’re doing in the game. It’s like it totally told you your backstory and what it is that you’re gonna do by the end of the game. And the last thing was, you’ll be rescued, the princess in the castle. And that scrolled, and then it dropped you at the start of the mission. And this is the first thing that we, that we thought, huh. It’s no accident that video games really do give you a really palpable sense of mission. What are we here to do? We’re not just going to drop you into any game and let you figure out what mission you want, what direction you’re going to go. It’s going to tell you where the finish line is for the game. So thought, why don’t courses do this? Why don’t courses spell out very clearly what your mission is in that course? What’s the finish line you’re going to? What’s it going to look like, feel like, taste like, you know, what’s it going to? What’s it going to mean in your life? So we started experimenting with giving our students a mission, just like in a video game where we almost roll a scroll at the start saying, this is where we’re going, this is how you’ll feel at the end. This is where to what direction you go, basically describing it as vividly as possible, the mission that they’re on. And as soon as we started doing that and using that as the first core experience in their experience of our education, they started, it was like night and day. Our students started feeling, like, really energized and really positive and excited about taking the first steps in that experience because they knew what direction they were going. They knew how to get there and they knew how they’d feel by the end. So it was like, wow. We didn’t expect that this simple thing borrowed from another environment, literally from a game when just dropped into education, would work so well. But that’s really what gamification is. It’s applying game mechanics in non game environments to get the, to get the same outcome. So it, it just transformed our student experience right off the bat. So that’s the core experience. Number one, mission.

Rob:
Awesome. And you’re, you’re talking about these core experiences, and again, maybe, maybe you’re not, um, we’re not going to talk about all of them, uh, in detail. But the next question, so that’s why I’m jumping ahead a little bit on this one, is when you’re creating these learning experiences, and probably it’s these ten, these ten core experiences, you probably have a method like, well, we’re going to create an experience about how to get people to learn how to, you know, make a minifigure of Lego at home. I don’t know, like anything you’re making up, how would you create that experience? Somebody comes up and wants to create this learning course. Do you have some steps? You have the core experiences. How would that look like? Again, this could be just an overall viewing. And then if you want to get into detail one of those other experiences, we can get into that as well.

Murray Gray:
Yeah, we just give our students, we educate our students on what the core experiences are. And I literally have a list of them, a list of ten of them. And we give the PDF to them. And so they can use it as a cheat sheet. They usually print it out, laminate it or whatever, and they’ve got it next to them as they create the experience, as they create their course from a to z, we have this list of ten core experiences that they can apply to the entire journey. But the cool thing is that these experiences kind of get fractal. You can apply the ten core experiences to the entire journey. You can apply it to one of the trainings, you can apply to another piece, like the community, for example. You can really get fractal with the experience design of your education. So that’s really the key takeaway here, is education should be inexperienced, that should be designed. So most people think of it as just an information dump. Boom, lands on someone’s desk. And that’s the third factor that we call it in the information product industry. And the belief has always been the more information you give people, the more valuable the product is. But that’s as far from the truth as possible. Actually, the more information you give people, the more overwhelmed they are. Simply because we already have too much information in our lives, we’ve got too much of it. If information alone could change lives, then we’d all be living in Google Topia. We’d all be rich, healthy and happy and have the life of our dreams. But we don’t because information is not sufficient. So when you wrap information with an experience that you design using the experience formula, that’s when things really light up. That’s when people get really excited and start to get really inspired to take action. So that’s really what I would tell people who are getting started. Grab the ten core experiences and start to apply them to the design of the, of the journey you want people to take.

Rob:
That makes a lot of sense. And thank you for sharing sort of that, uh, mind frame that you have around your whole, your whole method and from your experience, you’ve been doing this for a while. Is there, when again, talking about, perhaps we can say gamified online, uh, courses or learning experiences in general, is there some form of a best practice or something that you say, well, if you create this type of projects, take this thing, as you were saying, like, maybe it’s what you, what you just said, to take this thing, implement and in your project is at least going to be, for sure a little bit better than it was if you didn’t do that.

Murray Gray:
I think there are a couple of core experiences that I would recommend everybody implement into what they do. So, number one mission that we already talked about, the other one, the core experience, number four that I want to cherry pick, is called constant wins. And if you look at a video game, any video game, whether it’s just on a computer or a phone or something like that, almost every action you take, you’re seeing, you’re hearing sound effect and animation, and you get points and you’re getting all these feedback mechanisms happening. So you’re getting constantly reminded that you’re winning, you’re winning, you’re winning, you’re winning, you’re doing good, you’re doing good. And that’s really, for better or for worse, addictive, because the more you get these cha chings and these kind of explosions, things happening as a result of the actions you’re taking, the more you want more of it. So we took that idea of constant wins and we applied it to our education experience. And we thought, we asked ourselves the question, how can we provide this feeling of constantly winning to a student? This feeling of constantly making progress and achieving something step by step by step by step. Because most courses and information products, they’re just. We call. I visualize it like a cycle, which is like a. It’s like a work, work, work, work, give up kind of cycle. And that’s most courses because I have any feeling of making progress or any feeling of I’m winning here. But in our experience design, we always encourage our students to make your. Your educational experience a action. Reward. Action. Reward, action. Reward, action. Reward. Just like a game, you take action, you get a reward. And by thinking about it like that, how can you give rewards to students after they take action, no matter what action they take? How can you do that in educational experience? And if you can figure that out, then you’re going to basically be able to pull your student all the way through to the end because they’re feeling like they’re making progress. And as humans, we need to feel like we’re making progress. Otherwise we’re going to give up. It’s just too hard.

Rob:
I don’t want to be a stickler for words here, but I have a question just to make sure I’m getting this one right. When you say rewards, does it have to mean that they actually get something? Or does reward, in this sense, maybe also mean feedback? Like when you go in Mario, right, and you press a button, it jumps. That’s feedback. Right. And it is fulfilling. Right. Seeing Mario jump is fulfilling a little bit. After a while, you know, it just works. But is it intended in that, in that direction?

Murray Gray:
When I say the word win, I mean any kind of feedback that you want to give that gives the student a feeling of, I did something good, I’m winning. I’m making progress, I am doing something good, I’m progressing, I am, you know, getting toward the. The finish line. That’s really the feeling that we’re going for. It’s not a feeling. It’s not a gift that you send them. It’s a feeling that you’re putting in someone’s heart about the journey that they’re on.

Rob:
Anywhere from confetti on the screen, right?

Murray Gray:
Yeah. Things like to getting something off and you get points and there’s confetti and there’s a celebration, and there’s a sound effect, and there’s an email that lands in your inbox saying, you know, Rob, I saw you finished this training. You’re doing great. Proud of you. Keep going. A text message saying, you know, you just. You just did this. That’s fantastic. You know, keep going. Just all these kinds of little, little wins. They really do add up and they fill someone’s battery, motivation battery, to keep going and going and going, going. So if you don’t do that, the motivation battery just drains very quickly and they give up. So that’s what I’m talking about. Does that help?

Rob:
Yes, very much. Very, very cool. And a follow up, if I may. There’s always one thing that, well, always, there’s plenty of people who also like to talk about consequences, right? So consequences, that’s a consequence. Positive consequence. I’m not sure if this applies as well on learning as it applies in other contexts sometimes. But what about the context of, you know, a consequence of, no, you didn’t get something right. Is there a consequence to that? Like in Duolingo, a consequence is you have a streak of 350 days. You use your freeze for a couple of days, but then you ran out and you didn’t log in the consequences. Well, you lose your streak. Right. You didn’t lose your learning. Right. All that’s still there. You can still achieve learning a language if that’s what you do through Duolingo. But the consequences, well, the streak is gone. You can get another one, but the one you had, it’s disappeared. Right. Does that also apply in this framework that you’re mentioning? Not so much, no. Okay.

Murray Gray:
Not so much. I don’t want to discourage people because everything that we’re trying in the framework is to encourage people, not to discourage people because most courses do. They do well enough to discourage people from wanting to take action. So I don’t want to go down that road. And I’ve got a love hate relationship with streaks because someone is doing good, good, good, and suddenly life happens and they get derailed. I don’t want to smack them on the hand and tell them all that good work, all that good feeling that you got stored up in that streak, it’s now gone. Now I’ve had the experience of losing a streak in Duolingo, and I didn’t want to go back because I’m like, damn it, that was like six months of streak and now it’s gone. And I don’t feel good about that. So I try to avoid the negative stuff.

Rob:
Cool. All right. All right. Got it. Thank you very much for that. And now we’ve gotten a bit of the meat and the juice of the conversation, I think. And I do have a question I always like to pop in here because I think it’s the best time with this feeling and what you’ve gotten from the interview at this point, is there somebody that you would say, well, I would be curious to listen to this or that person answering those same questions on the professor game podcast. Is there a person that inspired you or I don’t know that you’d like to talk about?

Murray Gray:
Gosh, I know my business partner. I hesitate to mention Marisa, my business partner. She helped me start the software company, but we’ve together been really pioneering these techniques. So I know that she’s got her own view on all of this and her own experience as she’s been coaching and mentoring tens of thousands of students every single year around the world. And she’s definitely been on the cold face of figuring out what works and what doesn’t. So I definitely recommend that you talk to Marisa. She would bring some perspectives to this that are completely unlike mine.

Rob:
Awesome. So definitely Marisa. Fantastic recommendation. In fact, I saw some of her work before I actually got to the opportunity to connect with you. I was about to reach out at some point near future when a past guest recommended talking to you. So one of the reasons why this conversation happened first, but hopefully we will get in touch with Marisa soon as well. Love it. Love it. Keeping up with the recommendations is there. If you were to recommend a book again, it could be directly in gamification or learning gamification or learning and psychology or something completely separate that you think would be useful for this audience. What book would that be? And of course, why my go to.

Murray Gray:
Is always Yukai chaos book, actionable gamification. I’m sorry if that’s a boring answer or something you’ve had before, but that’s always my go to resource for learning about how to actually apply these principles to the outside world, to software, to education, to environments, to communities. It’s really the best book out there.

Rob:
It was one of the earliest books I read and I had the fantastic chance to get to meet Yukai early on my journey as well. He came here to Madrid to the Gamification World Congress, 2017 or 16 or something, which was the last one that they actually organized openly and we got the chance. I invited him over to the university, then we hung out for a bit. It was great. But his book is definitely a big reference in this world and to understanding many, many other things, and I use part of that on my own courses at the university as well. So completely behind that recommendation. Murray, thank you for that. It doesn’t matter if it’s boring or nothing. I don’t know if it is. I wouldn’t say so. But anyways, great recommendation for sure. And in this world of learning gamification, maybe introducing tech, as you were mentioning at the start, and software and so on, what would you say is your superpower, that thing that you do at least better than most other people, I.

Murray Gray:
Think turning ideas into real things. For me, reading a book like actionable gamification or a book that is really a non fiction book that really starts to give ideas, for me, the most frustrating part of that is I’m stopping every page to make copious notes about what I’m learning and where I can apply it. And I’ve got to stop after three pages because I’ve got so many notes. I’m excited to go off and figure out where they all Fitzhen, you know, the giant picture. I just love creating small software projects and small kind of other little things that I’m thinking of every day. I’ve just got too many ideas. Like most entrepreneurs, you have too many ideas. And I love taking an idea and turning it into a real thing that can benefit someone.

Rob:
Absolutely, absolutely, definite superpower for sure. And we get to a difficult one. You were mentioning you’ve been a gamer for quite a while, right? A video gamer in particular. What would you say is your favorite game?

Murray Gray:
Wow. I’m going to come clean here. I haven’t been gaming for quite a while simply because I love the gaming so much that if I were to open that door again, I would be lost forever. I would just do nothing else but game, you know, I’ve got to make progress with my business. So, stretching back into the deep, dark history, I can tell you that the most fun I’ve ever had with a game. And it was a, it was a group experience and it was. Do you remember that, that game, quake and Quake two, that was put out by id software back in the, I want to say late nineties?

Rob:
I have no idea when it was, but I do remember the game. Yeah.

Murray Gray:
So those games, it’s like one of the original first person shooters. And you could take your big old desktop computer, like your big box, and you could take it over to your friend’s house on a Friday night or on a weekend and connect them all up with lan cables. And then you could have these just these land, we call them lan parties, and you could have these giant matches with all your friends. Like you have ten friends in one room and you’re all just shooting each other and having these capture the flag games all weekend long and eating pizza and drinking coke. So that those experiences were, when it comes to gaming, they’re the ones that I cherish the most of all, because that’s when I was with my friends. We were having fun, and it was.

Rob:
A shared experience totally for me. So two things came up immediately when you said that the first thing is from those first person shooters. The first time I actually got to play those online or with several people was somebody near and dear in my family who took me to this land. They were later called cyber cafes or something like that, where you had 20 computers and there were essentially 20 people playing the same game. Everybody was there playing the exact same thing. I think that was counter strike. They sort of upgraded to half life back in the day and definitely was a huge experience for me, even playing with people I had never met. Right. But the other one is even further back when I started playing, you know, my play days started with Nintendo, right? So you had two controllers, right, and playing with somebody else, and sometimes we had like, four or five friends as well. And, you know, I was playing or not playing, but we were all together. Looking at, especially the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was one of the franchises that took over my gaming back in those days. Well, actually, it’s known by chance that I have them today here. It was one of those franchises that took over for me, but then when Nintendo 64 came up with four controllers, it completely changed the game in the console market for me. You could actually play with four people and then, of course, online and all this, but you could sit down and be looking at the same screen, having connected the cables to the same place, four people playing the same game. So I’m totally with you on that one, Murray, for sure. And Murray, we’re running out of time for the interview. I mean, we’re happy with the fantastic value provided. I don’t know if there’s any final words you want to have, any calls to action you want to have where we can find out more about experience if I, Murray’s work or wherever you want to guide us to.

Murray Gray:
Wow, thanks so much. It’s been a lot of fun to have this conversation, and thanks for inviting me. I think for me as a business owner, and that’s what I do day in, day out. I work on software and I put down to the world, and I put out education as well. And I noticed that in today’s day and age, where information is coming at us so much and so fast, especially with AI really coming to the fore and AI generated content is just really starting to hit now, and you don’t really know. You don’t really know how to get what you need in terms of the education. So I think the thing I want to say is that the gamification that I’ve been talking about today is really a way to create a more humanistic experience around what it is that you do. So whatever it is that you do, if you have a business or you do help people or educate or teach, I do encourage that you think about how to add these experiences into what is that you do so that you can help people feel motivated, you can help them feel excited. You can help give an experience that really does connect them together and make them feel like they’re part of something bigger than not just information. So that’s really part of the reason for the success I’ve had is by, you know, starting to think about what I do in those terms, but giving people the resources they need psychologically to want to engage and want to learn. So that’s really been the biggest power up that I’ve made to my business in many, many years.

Rob:
Love it. And thank you for that, Murray. It’s one of the things I love to say as well. Like when even if you just start thinking about, well, why would people do whatever it is you want them to do? And not just about how, how they get to do it, but why would they do it, you’re already, you know, a hundred steps ahead from most of your competition because they’re just not even thinking about it so totally. And then, of course, you have to take action, as you were saying. That’s crucial. But anyways, Murray, thank you very much for being with us today. Thank you for, you know, taking a bit of your time to be here with us, sharing your insights, your knowledge, your experience with the engagers. However, Murray and engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, engagers. And thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you? Just go to professorgame.com freegamification work, professorgame.com freegamificationcourse, and get started today or free after that, we will also be in contact, and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that professor game might have for you. And remember, before you go onto your next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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