If you’re struggling to keep people engaged and loyal in your product or business, check out my FREE gamification course to learn how to do just that: bit.ly/freegamificationcourse-web

Have you wondered about the significance of respecting and refining every idea within a creative team? In this episode of the Professor Game Podcast, we explore successful gamification strategies and insights with Mike Rufail, a notable figure in the gaming and gamification industry. Understand the allure and functionality of gamification, which merges game design with non-gaming environments to boost interaction and dedication. Rufail shares hard-earned lessons from his extensive career, including the significance of respecting and refining every idea within a creative team. Drawing on practical examples and professional experiences, this episode offers listeners an in-depth understanding of implementing gamification to achieve business goals.

Mike Rufail is the Chief Executive Officer of Tradeoff. In more than two decades as a leader in gaming, Rufail helped popularize global competitive esports and has previously served as a consultant on video game design, competition, and esports strategy for several major companies. Before joining Tradeoff, he served as chief gaming officer and co-owner of OpTic Gaming and chief executive officer of Envy Gaming, which he founded in 2007. Rufail is based in Dallas, Texas, and is an alumnus of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

Guest Links and Info

• Website: tradeoff.com
• LinkedIn: Tradeoff Financial Corp

 

Links to episode mentions:

• Proposed guest: Someone from Valve Software (creators of Steam)
• Recommended book: Not reading books but into what communities are saying!
• Favorite game: Diablo Series!

 

Lets’s do stuff together!

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game, where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez, a consultant and the founder of Professor Game and a professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, if you’re struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make sure your users stay with you, perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free in the links in the description. Hey engagers. And welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have Mike with us today. But Mike, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Mike Rufail:
Oh yeah, always.

Rob:
Let’s do this. We have Mike Rufail. How do I pronounce that?

Mike Rufail:
It’s actually Rafael, but we always just say Rafael to keep it simple. But Rafael.

Rob:
Rafael. I’ll try to remember that one if possible. And we have Mike Rafael, who is the Chief Executive officer of Trade Off. In more than two decades as a leader in gaming, he has helped popularize global competitive esports and has previously served as a consultant on video game design, competition and esports strategy for several major companies. And before joining Trade off, he served as the chief Gaming Officer and co owner of Optic Gaming and Chief Executive Officer of Envy Gaming, which he founded in 2007. He’s based in Dallas in Texas and is an alumni of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. So Mike, is there anything that we should know that we didn’t mention on that intro?

Mike Rufail:
I have a four month old baby and a six year old daughter. So I’m also a father and husband to an amazing wife.

Rob:
Really important, Absolutely.

Mike Rufail:
Yes, yes. But those are four things in my life.

Rob:
Four months. You’re still on the difficult side of the initial difficult sleep and that kind of stuff, right?

Mike Rufail:
Oh no, he’s actually just an incredible baby so far, so we’ve been blessed with that. But yeah, those are the two sides of my life, career and family and yeah, that’s what you should know. Cool.

Rob:
So Mike, can you run us through what is a normal day or week with you look like? Essentially we want to be with you on your shoes for a bit and see what that looks like.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, well, I have children, so I wake up from six to seven in the morning every single morning. And yeah, I mean if I really had to give you the full day, I usually take my dogs outside, get a, get a, open up the Garage doors, get my dogs outside, let them have some time outside in the mornings. And then, I mean I live by the calendar. So typically day right now is checking in. We’re in the kind of early phase of our first build of our game and so I’m typically working a lot more with the designers right now than I am with kind of the back end and front end guys. But yeah, I immediately just start cherry picking through my email and also our design environment and just start looking at the latest notes and how we can improve and dropping notes in for our designers. So that right now that’s, that’s typically how I’m spending my day. And then, you know, just interfacing with our different teams and talking to different groups throughout the day.

Rob:
Sounds absolutely amazing. Sounds very exciting because you’re at the start of all this. You’ve had the experience to do this in other different, different ventures in the past. So it sounds like an exciting time if you ask me. But let’s actually dive again with all the experience. You also mentioned that you’ve been a competitive esports gamer as well. All the experience that you have around games. I’m sure there have been times where things have not gone as fantastic as they have resulted in the end. And it’s one of those times where you feel it’s the end but then you realize it’s not. So a fail moment, a first attempt in learning, especially when it has to do with game design or you mentioned in the pre interview chat we were talking about how it’s using gamification for something that’s typically not been gamified before. Again, we want to be there in that story because we want to take away some of the lessons that you took to maybe save us from some grief in the future.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, there’s one story specifically. I was young when I first I got hired in by Activision Blizzard to work on Call of Duty as an esports advisor and designer of features in the game. And it was my first real kind of triple A game job, you know, going into, to work as a designer. And I walked in to a conference room and well, you know, maybe my third day and all of the department heads from Treyarch Studios were in there specifically working with Treyarch Studios and everybody was kind of chiming in ideas about esports for all the department heads or studio in the studio. And somebody, the game design director who I reported to, David Vonderhaar, who’s a masterclass game designer, is just amazing for Call of Duty, asked me, Mike, what do you think about that. And it was an idea that I think one of the audio guys was coming up with when we were discussing footsteps when you’re running in Call of Duty. And he said, why don’t you think that’s a good idea? And I said, I just think it’s a stupid idea. And I just said what my heart was feeling and then I got drug outside and he said, don’t you ever, ever say that an idea is stupid. In that room with my department heads. He’s like, don’t ever say that. You know, he’s just like that, that if you ever do that again, I’m, I’m really going to get onto you. And I’m like, okay, I’m sorry. You know, I learned, you know, that day. And so basically the story is, you know, I became, I was young and a bit ignorant because I didn’t have experience. But now, you know, my approach now based off of that is every idea should be brought to the table. I mean I now with all the experience I have, there are no bad or stupid ideas, right? They don’t, they really don’t exist in game design. All the ideas, the more ideas that you bring to the table, the better off you’re going to be when you produce a game, period. And yes, you will whittle out some ideas that aren’t going to fit your game, but. And even the most ridiculous sounding ideas have made good games from what I’ve seen, right. So that’s how some of the groundbreaking games get made, is that the most ridiculous, ridiculous ideas actually get made. So anyway, I just thought that was a story that people can learn from. I still look at it as a major failure because I also, you know, from a character standpoint, you know, not knowing someone and calling their idea stupid is not, you know, has just not. Doesn’t belong in a game, in a game studio.

Rob:
So it’s a lesson learned. I mean you had to go through that to, to take it to heart, which seems to be the case, right, that you took that to heart and now you see it differently. And there’s even methodologies for this kind of thing. Like nowadays with Lego series play, precisely the idea and objective is for all the ideas to come to the table so they can be discussed and they can at least be brought up. And yeah, so I mean, I totally get it. Sometimes they ask you and you say, well yeah, this is what I think, right. Um, but depending on what role you’re playing and what’s, you know, what’s the situation, maybe it was not the best place to call out the idea, maybe to analyze it later. Maybe it went through, maybe it didn’t. I don’t know. We don’t need to know.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah. I think my exact words were like, that would be stupid. You know, it would be. That would be. Because that would be stupid. That’s what I said, you know, Is it. Why, why, why would that. Why, why wouldn’t you do that? Because that would be stupid. Yeah. You know, and, you know, I guess.

Rob:
But, yeah, but you’re discouraging, like, I think the main thing is here, you’re discouraging ideas from a team. Right. Or if you start saying your ideas are stupid, you’re discouraging your ideas.

Mike Rufail:
Tone matters, you know, your tone matters. And, you know, the way you. The way you address someone’s idea matters, you know, in just creating a good team environment also.

Rob:
So totally, totally, completely agree. So again, maybe you had to just go through that to be able to take this to heart as you did.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah.

Rob:
So.

Mike Rufail:
Well, I learned, you know, that afternoon, and I never said something like that again. Seriously. Yeah. Really? I really did. You know, good, good stuff.

Rob:
So actually, let’s flip that around. How about a time where things actually did go well? What were some of the lessons learned, some of the. Maybe some of the success factors that you can name from that experience? Again, we want to be there with you as we were in that. Sitting in that conference room with you, listening to you saying that and maybe cringing a little bit and saying, oh, but, yeah, but we totally get what happened there and we want to be there with you again.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah. So when it comes to trade off, you know, the project I’m working on now, I, you know, it’s. It. I think experience, you know, is. Is one of the things that has given me, has created a. An opportunity for me to do well. Okay. Experience and repetition. I’ve. I’ve, you know, I was a professional gamer. I played Call of Duty more than, you know, maybe just a few people in the world at the time when I was competing, I was playing the game probably more than. More than, you know, pretty much the rest of the world. You know, it was my job to play the game. So, you know, getting the repetition in is how I learned to be better as a professional gamer. And I think I learned that early on that the more you do something, you know, you can hear somebody say it to you, the more you do something, the better you’re going to be at it. Right. And if you want to be good at something, you have to do it over, you know, you have to do it over and over again. Right. But people don’t really take that to heart and don’t think about that enough, in my opinion. And that goes for everything in our lives that you want to be good at or most things, you can apply repetition to it. And the more you do it, the better you’re going to be at it. The more time you spend on it, the better you’ll be at it. So what happened was I started trading and investing in the markets. I was always competitive, but always like a data numbers guy and always like to look at the numbers. And so the stock market I was attracted to and started trading, investing, and I found it incredibly difficult in my first couple years doing it. And I knew that it was one of those things that I could get good at it. I could tell that it was something I could get good at or at least that’s how I felt if I just continued to repeat and experience it. Right. The problem is you’re risking real money, right. When in the stocking crypto markets, if you’re trading them or any market, for example, you’re risking value. So that, that’s, I saw that opportunity as, wow, like there’s no way to really do this and learn it unless you’re really, you have a bunch of capital. Right. So how can I.

Rob:
And ruin a significant part of it? Right?

Mike Rufail:
Right. Yes, right. You have to hold onto that capital and eventually like 90%, we’re seeing over 90% fail rate with day traders. Okay. That’s, that’s a real statistic put out by finra, you know, and if, if day traders are losing, I believe it was put out by finra, don’t quote me on that, but it’s pretty widely known that 90% of day traders are losing money. Right. And so, you know, the reason that is because there’s no way to really recover after you lose kind of all your money. Right. You can’t really just get back into it and start that repetition. And so I wanted to change that. And I still, you know, that’s, that’s why I want to get trade off up and running in a way that, you know, what we want to do is create a trading simulator where you’re incentivized to win prizes. And that incentivization is your risk. Your risk is now not losing all your money. It’s not winning. And that’s still enough risk to get people to continue to try and repeat. And you can test your strategies in a real time marketplace. Right. So what our game does is we’re a simulator that uses fake money, basically simulated dollars, fantasy money. And we enter you into fantasy games where you’re competing against other traders and users. And you all start with the same amount of cash, balance of fantasy money. And you trade the real time markets just as if you were trading a real brokerage or investment account. You’re not and you’re trading fantasy money. But the results are the same as if you were right. $100,000 number on my brokerage account could be the same on my game, right? So we put that number there, you have a hundred thousand dollars what we kind of set opening balance at. You trade it against other, you know, in the markets. And then your, your balance, your performance is what rates you against other players, right? And week. So basically at the end of a tournament or the end of a match, a 1v1 match, whoever has the highest balance wins. Right. And then the data that comes off of that, we pull all that trade data and we can actually kind of show you, you know, where you went right and wrong and in our graphs and visualizations. And you get this big access to the data of all your trades on our platform versus other users. And so you can actually comp. Compare yourself to other users who do well. You can follow those other users and check out their profile and see what they’re doing and their strategies. You know, we’re creating a place where people can learn to trade and compete and for prize money and prizes. And it’s a game of skill, right? We’re operating as a game of skill. And so that’s what a trade off is. And that’s kind of where I think my success is, is discovering that this repetition can help people.

Rob:
You found a place where, you know, it wasn’t safe essentially to do repetition, right? Which is trading because you could lose all your money. And you found a way to make it safe essentially so that people could learn the skill essentially, because trading is a skill. Again, you can still lose still. 90% of people are going to lose all their money. Maybe we managed to take it down to 85% still.

Mike Rufail:
That’s right. You said the number, right. I’ve always said to our partners and as we’re raising money for trade off potential investors, if we can just change that number from now 90 to 85%, I mean the amount of difference that makes for those, that 5% of people in terms of their just financial independence is massive. I mean, it’s massive. So that’s it, that’s the number like if we can just convert 5% to.

Rob:
Being that’s duplicated, that’s 50% more success.

Mike Rufail:
Exactly. Yeah. And imagine what that does financially.

Rob:
Right, but it’s a numbers game, right? It’s the way you frame it. If they say you increase 50% success totally. And it works, it works for 50% more people. I completely agree. Still, the failure rate is still 85%.

Mike Rufail:
Which is incredibly high. But over time I hope to chip away at that. Right.

Rob:
But it’s part of the way the system works. Like it’s trading works that way.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, that’s right. And people won’t do it just to try, you know, a lot. There are people who. It’s called paper trading right now. Right. People will go on platforms and there are platforms out there you can go paper trade on. But there’s no incentive, right, other than just being able to see what you’re doing and learn from that repetition. But there’s no, no, there’s not enough incentive to get, you know, the average person to spend a lot of time on that. Right. But when you can win something, right, and it’s an environment in a. On a platform that looks good and feels good, like the user experience is good, you know, we. That’s what I hope for, is to create that platform where people can go and they’re incentivized and they feel like they’re spending their time doing something fun that they’re also learning from. Cool.

Rob:
Cool. So, Mike, if you’re, you know, maybe, maybe in the future you find a different project that you might want to gamify besides trade off, or somebody comes to you and says, look, I see you did this with trade off. I’d want to do it with this other thing. Is there a process for the game design part or the gamification part that you would perhaps explain to. You have some steps, I don’t know, like, how would you come up with that? Is there a mental process that you follow here?

Mike Rufail:
You know, I’ve learned a lot. Even more. I’ve learned a lot more working on trade off too. And so one of them, one of the things I would say recently is that I’ve had, you know, just one of my colleagues working with me, that Mark Buzer is his name, and he really opened my world to this. Mark is a former rocket engineer, you know, turned into a game designer. And you know, in terms of steps, yeah, I mean, we operate a little bit loose, to be quite honest. You know, I mean, we’re such a startup right now that, you know, things Things are fairly loose. But yeah, planning is important. You know, creating, creating some bit of a plan is very important. And then, you know, to get into specifics. You know, I think when, when a lot of the discussion we’ve been having and the realizations that we’ve been having is a lot of games don’t, don’t spend time on what we call business intelligence. Okay. Or game intelligence, you know, user intelligence. Right. Like, but we call it business intelligence. Right. If you want to create a business out of this, a game which most people create, you know, games to be somewhat of a business in some way, just having all the data and the mechanisms to absorb that data on what makes the game, what’s making the game sticky. Like having a dashboard of all your data to understand where your users are having issues with your game. Right. I think that is one thing that I think is going to be more prominent in the future. And you know, know basically just g creating systems in your game that give you intelligence on your users and players and that will allow you to ultimately be better for your players and your users. And you know, that’s something we’re focused on obviously with trade off and we’re how we’re gamifying the stock and crypto market and creating fantasy games around that we are absorbing a ton of data. It’s, you know, what our users are doing in the markets, you know, to all the way down to like is this, are they leaving our platform? Because this, they can’t figure something out. Right. You know, along the journey of using like a chart, you know, and the stock chart and things like that. So we, we had a big focus on that and so, and continue to have a big focus on kind of user and business intelligence.

Rob:
Very, very good practice that you have there. I think it’s significant that once you’ve decided that whatever you’re doing is in the direction of becoming a business, you have to, especially in game design, I think in general it’s easy to keep that sort of off your mind and say, well, we’ll build a game that works and it’s fine and everything’s good. And now we’ll see how we monetize, which might work. I mean, don’t get me wrong, sometimes that’s the way to go. But it depends on what you’re doing. There has to be a way in which you’re, at the very least, as you were saying, you’re collecting data on how people are, how it’s being sticky or not like what’s working in the platform, what’s not. Because then is where you can, you know, whether it’s monetization. Sponsored. Like whatever it is that you’re going to do, you have the available information to be able to do whatever comes next. Without it, you just wouldn’t be able to do it, no matter how fun the game can be.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s it, right? It’s. First of all, it’s hard to create a good game. Okay? It is.

Rob:
It’s difficult already.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, yeah, right. It’s difficult to create a good game. And then if you do manage to create a good game, and when I say good game, I mean that people. A game that people, a lot of people like to play. Right? Okay, so when you create a good game that a lot of people like to play, how do you make it better? Right. How do you continue to engage those users? Right? There has to be. If you want to continually have user growth or just even maintain your level of users, you always have to create that engagement. And Mark Beezer, I just mentioned, he calls it dopamine. How do we create dopamine? Right. How do we create happiness for our users? And if you don’t have intelligence, then it becomes much more difficult to identify the little simple things that actually can make things better for your users. So like I said down to like, if just some function of your platform or your game, it’s like kind of a dead end or just like it’s like a difficult place for users to kind of maneuver around. They get frustrated and they bounce. Right. And they leave and log off or just leave. So I think a big focus on that in the future is what you’ll. You’ll start to see more of more engineering around, understanding where your users are having their issues. Cool, cool. And Mike, or what’s best for them, right? Like what is the most engaging thing for them? And doing more of that. Right?

Rob:
What’s working? What’s not working, essentially.

Mike Rufail:
And that’s more of what’s working and fix what’s not working.

Rob:
Right? Yeah. And Mike, you’ve heard some of the questions, sort of the vibe of the podcast at this point. Is there somebody that you would be curious to listen to, answering these questions? Sort of a future guest for the podcast? Somebody come to mind?

Mike Rufail:
Oh, man. Gosh, that’s a really hard question. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I’m a big fan of what I’ve had the pleasure of meeting some of the people from Valve, you know, and, and I think I would love to hear some more. Yeah. The game studio. Yeah. With, you know, Valve, you know, they, they have Steam also. Right. So like, I think I feel like they’ve done just so many things right. I’m a big fan of just what Valve has done, not just in their own games, you know, but also just with the ste. With the Steam platform. And yeah, I would love to hear like a bit about, more about how some of the features, you know, came. Came to be in Steam and just hear somebody answer, you know, questions that you’re asking me, you know, so I don’t know if it’s, if it’s Gabon himself or just really probably one of the more of like the, you know, whoever’s in charge of designing and developing Steam. The Steam platform is probably who I want to hear from.

Rob:
Steam is just ridiculous. Yeah, it’s so huge.

Mike Rufail:
I think they were just so far ahead in their way of thinking of like games marketplaces and what they can even do for gamers inside their own ecosystem. And just with a games marketplace, I mean, I think what they’ve done is incredible. I just don’t think it’s even talked enough in our industry. It’s probably talked a lot about, but at the end of the day it deserves more in my opinion.

Rob:
Totally love that. So somebody from Valve will see if there’s a specific person would be the best one to answer those things and keeping up with those recommendations. You know, you’ve had an extensive career in different things around gaming, game design and so on. Is there maybe a book that you would recommend and which book would that be and why would that be interesting for an audience like this one?

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, honestly, you know, while books might be great, I mean, I think my preference is always like I use Reddit and I know it sounds a lot of people do and a lot of people don’t, but I like to just read, read people’s actual real people’s comments and stories. You know, whether it be in game design, there’s like a Reddit that’s just games, you know, like it’s the subreddit’s games. Like you know, just going in and reading what people have to say or just post about games. I spend a lot, all my time doing that really in terms of like the academics of game design and reading through kind of, you know, books about experiences or whatever. I don’t, I don’t tend to do too much of that as opposed to, I really just dive into communities and read a lot about what people are doing in indie game design to just what players are thinking. Right. And a lot of that I just go into a lot of the game subreddits too, and just read what’s happening from time to time. And all these different games I’m interested in. And so, I don’t know, I really recommend doing that because you’re really just farming intelligence. Right. Like on, you know, eventually, if you read enough, you can understand, you know, what. What’s preferred and what’s not from a popular standpoint, you know, and yeah, I think. I think I recommend people doing that, just like really learning from other people that are just posting on the Internet.

Rob:
Cool. So things like Reddit and others. Absolutely love it. Mike, in this world of game design, gaming, and all the things that you’ve done, what would you say is your superpower? That thing that you do at least better than most other people in the world, besides Call of Duty, of course.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, I mean, a lot of what, you know, comes from my background is building teams of people, you know. Yeah, building teams of people and helping. Helping those. I think my superpower is really letting. Giving people an environment where they can realize their full potential. That’s what I’ve built my career on. Whether it was signing the best pro gamers from all over the world to compete on my teams to go win a world championship, that’s our goal. Right. So I want to sign the best players I can put together on one team that can go out and win a world championship together. And there’s a chemistry to that. The best player in the world in the game, like Call of Duty or Counter Strike or League of Legends, might be the best player of the world with his current teammates, but you put him on another team and he’s no longer the best player in the world. And so that chemistry really matters. And so I think my superpower was one, you know, was basically creating an environment where people could realize their full potential. And then being a chemist with the composition of players on my team, and I take that into business also. So, you know, putting people together that can achieve a goal with that have the right environment and chemistry.

Rob:
Cool. Putting the right team together, essentially.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah. Team building. In a short answer.

Rob:
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I’m trying to summarize it, but, you know, it’s all those things that you were saying. Totally good one. And maybe a difficult one here, finally, because the ones you’ve been sort of breezing by so much experience that you had. But what would you say, Mike, if I asked you what is your favorite game?

Mike Rufail:
That’s impossible. How do people answer that? Right. I don’t I don’t even understand. I mean, I. My favorite game franchise of all time is something I’m just rekindling my love with right now, which is Diablo. I’m just a big fan of the Diablo series, but, man, it’s. It’s not. I mean, I play a ton of. I played a ton of games, you know, throughout my life, and I have a lot that are, you know, that are a lot of fun to me. I really enjoyed playing Starcraft, you know, I mean, there’s so many. They’re really. I played Magic the Gathering, you know, since I was a kid, you know, young kid. And so I still have my collection somewhere over here on the shelf, you know, and I loved, you know, playing collectible card games like that. But, yeah, I mean, it dates all the way back to when I was a child too, right? Like a lifetime of playing video games and other games. So, yeah, I would say Diablo right now is the one I’m spending the most time on.

Rob:
Yeah, sounds good. Sounds good. People end up going sort of around like. Well, currently or historically, it makes sense, right? Because most of the people we interview here have a strong passion for games as well, in one way or another. And it’s really hard to choose. The other day, trying to remember where it was that they asked me the question, and I always sort of avoid answering because it’s a question for the podcast, right? But it is a tough one, for sure. It’s intentionally tough. I think it brings up good stuff and people have to sort of sit down and make some reflection points on what has been their lives as a gamer, where they are at right now. It’s always, I don’t know. And it brings up. I would like to argue that if I were better at being a psychologist or something like that, I’m sure that I could bring up some traits from people just from answering that question and. And some of the podcasts, but, you know, it’s not my specialty, so. All good. Mike, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Is there anything else you want to share? You know, anything. Any plays you want to lead us to, you know, call to action, anything. This is the right moment before we finish, essentially.

Mike Rufail:
Yeah. So, yeah, just if anybody’s listening and wants to look into trade off more, we’re on X or Twitter at Play trade off. We’re just getting started, you know, as a startup, but our first tests are, you know, kind of test tournaments and games will start running In November of 2024, this. This coming month. And then we should have something like a public alpha launch, you know, sometime before the end of the year. And so would love for you all to jump in and play some games, learn to trade and invest if you haven’t learned already. And if you are looking to just sharpen your skills and compete, then we’re the place for you too. So yeah, just follow us online. You can also visit our landing page.

Rob:
For now@tradeoff.com sounds fantastic and thanks again Mike for sharing your experience, your expertise, everything that you’ve been doing. Well, what we were able to share in these scarce almost 30 minutes. However, Mike and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey Engagers and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you. Just go to professorgame.com freegamification work course, all one word professorgame.com freegamificationscourse and get started today for free. After that we will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that Professor Game might have for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click Continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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