Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Transforming Gamification’s Goal Setting Using OKRs With Sara Lobkovich | Episode 366

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The Objectives and Key Results framework can transform ambitious visions into measurable outcomes and inspire high performance. Learn about the critical shift from activity-based goals to outcome-based objectives and how gamification can enhance engagement and loyalty. Our guest: Sara Lobkovich, a seasoned strategy coach, shares her insights and real-world examples of leveraging these powerful tools to drive remarkable organizational progress. Join us on this insightful episode where we explore the intersection of OKRs and gamification.

Sara Lobkovich is a strategy coach and huge goal nerd. In her work with status-quo challenging leaders and other workplace rebels, she helps people and companies set clear goals, stay focused, and build cultures where everyone can learn, grow, and achieve meaningful results. She works with organizations implementing Objectives and Key Results (OKRs), a collaborative goal methodology; and, with individuals seeking greater career fulfillment — especially people who are introverted, neurodivergent, and/or don’t come from a “traditional” business background.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez, a consultant and the founder of Professor Game and a professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, if you’re struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make sure your users stay with you, perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free in the links in the description. Hey engagers. So welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast we have with us today, Sarah. But Sarah, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Sara Lobkovich:
I am prepared to engage.

Rob:
Let’s do this. So Sarah Lobkovich, is that good?

Sara Lobkovich:
Yep. Lobkovich, Yep.

Rob:
She’s a strategy coach and a huge goal nerd. And in her work with status quo, challenging lead leaders and other workplace rebels, she helps people and companies set clear goals, stay focused and build cultures where everyone can learn, grow and achieve meaningful results. She works with organizations implementing objectives and key results. OKR is something I’ve worked with a bit in the past as well. A collaborative goal methodology and with individuals seeking greater career fulfillment, especially when people are introverted, neurodivergent and or don’t come from a traditional business background. So Sarah, is there anything that, that we’re missing from the intro that the engagers should know?

Sara Lobkovich:
No. That was really comprehensive and awesome. Thank you.

Rob:
Good, good. So Sarah, can you run us through what your days look like or your weeks or your months, whatever you want to go for. We essentially want to be in your shoes and feel a little bit of what it feels like to be you.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah, I mean it looks a lot like this. I spend a lot of time in front of a camera and a microphone either with my own podcast. Thank you doers guesting in situations like this and then teaching. I do. I love learning and I love teaching and facilitating learning. I also do coaching. So it is a lot of my time is here in my office slash studio and then I’m re entering the world a little bit for in person facilitation and speaking engagements and that sort of thing which has been really fun. Like it’s it. I have forgotten some of the peopling skills during the pandemic so I’m rebuilding my peopling muscles. But as far as how a day breaks down, I am. I have to have variety in my day. I struggle really hard with hyperfocus. So my brain, I mean, here we can talk about games. I just have a puzzle brain. My brain makes everything into a puzzle. So I have to break day with interruptions so that I don’t lose entire days to hyperfocus with that puzzle brain trying to solve whatever I’m working on obsessively. So I use tools to keep myself a little more aware of time than I naturally am and make sure that my days have a balance of deep work and in the world, like in the world work. And I try really hard to focus on building in public. So that’s kind of a mix of what my days look like.

Rob:
Cool, cool. Sounds very exciting. And good stuff that you could be working on for sure. And usually we sort of deep dive into things like game design and gamification and all that. But actually I was proactively contacting you because I saw that you are very focused in goal setting, which is, you know, goal setting, okrs and all, you know, all these related areas. And, you know, one of the things that I argue always is like super, super important in the methodology when creating something that is, you know, beyond entertainment, games can be entertaining as well. Something that goes a bit beyond that is to really deeply, you know, proactively understand what are you going for. And that’s. You can call it objectives. You know, there’s many ways to call it. I use objectives quite a bit. So I’m going to be diving deeper with you on that topic and just letting the engagers know that this is going to be that kind of interview where we actually focus on one of the things that we do in gamification from a different perspective. In fact, Sarah mentioned that she used to do a little bit of gamification at some point, that she loves play and games and that kind of stuff, but that her focus is here. So keeping that in mind. Right. Can you tell us a story about a time where actually you were doing this objective setting, OKRs or whatever, and things just did not go your way? So a first attempt in learning a failure. However you want to, you want to go for. We want to again be in that story with you. You’re also a podcaster. You know, we love stories, so we want to live that story with you and take away some of the lessons learned from that time.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah, when I was early on in my work with okrs, I was. It’s kind of funny, I started working in consulting with okrs with CL when I was fairly new to them, so I wasn’t a deep expert when I started working with clients, but I was with an agency that had won a contract around okrs. I had been using what I didn’t know were called key results in my own work for several years. So I was familiar with the objective and key result concepts and mechanics individually, but I hadn’t worked with them at large scale. And so I’ll just never forget my first contracting engagement with a real client practicing okrs with me as the expert. In coaching, they say you only have to be 10% ahead of your clients to be useful. And so I told myself that we got into the coaching session and the facilitation of the clients towards measurable key results. They just got stuck on activity thinking. Like, could not get them past activity thinking. And I just remember being in there and being like, what do I do? Like, this isn’t what we’re here for. This isn’t why they hired me. They can’t. Like, they aren’t making the mental shift. And I can, like, I can remember the conference room I was in and I mentioned hyper focus, like my. I have been solving that problem ever since.

Rob:
Sarah, I know what you mean when you talk about activity activities here. Can you give us a broad meaning of what that looks like for. For the engagers to make sure that we’re on the same page for sure and why that wasn’t working for what you were looking for?

Sara Lobkovich:
Of course, absolutely. When most people think about goal setting, even in the objectives and key results context, we think of words like outcome, which is a very ambiguous word, but it’s relied on really heavily in goal setting. And so when we ask people to create goals, it is a natural human thing. When we’re in the workplace, I think to think about what we can control and to create goals around what we think we can control. And that’s our activity. So that’s what we’re doing. We can’t control multivariable outcomes, so it’s really scary to set goals around them. And so the clients, you know, I was asking goal setting questions, they were answering with what was in their control and what I didn’t know at the time, but I learned really fast and have since kind of honed my skill set in is we have to shift our thinking from what’s within our control to what might be possible to achieve. Recognizing that we’re operating in an uncertain world with multiple variables that is beyond our control. And so it’s a big mental shift that the form of goal setting that I work with from what must we achieve? What has to get done. Which I think of that as planning. I don’t think of that as goal setting to what might be possible to achieve even if we don’t control the outcome. Because statistically we tend to over perform what we thought was possible when we set those kind of stretch, aspirational, inspired goals. So goal for goal, if we set a conservative or an activity based goal because we think if I don’t achieve this, I’m going to feel bad. So we set that conservative goal. If we set a stretch goal on the same subject, we’ll tend to overperform what we thought was possible. It’s just a dynamic of human performance and goal theory. So yeah, it’s that I love. Like I have so much fun with clients making that shift now because everyone walks in saying, you know, I’ve read Measure what Matters. We want to create okrs, we need to get more measurable. I ask coaching questions and they are just, I call it activity quicksand. Like they’re just stuck in. We’re going to reach our milestones or we’re going to send our. We’re going to publish two podcast episodes a month and it takes practice to think about what are the most important impacts. Like, it would be so cool if I landed a speaking engagement in the automotive space as a result of my podcast. Like, that would be so cool. And so then when we think of outcomes that’s beyond my control, that’s a scary goal to set. But we can envision those outcomes that we get excited about and in a psychologically safe way in the workplace. We might or might not be in a workplace where that’s safe to do, but within our own careers we can always set those kind of goals for ourselves.

Rob:
It’s about, and you said some keywords there, it’s not about. It is about outcome, it’s not about output. This is actually something I’ve been discussing with some people I’m working with recently. But the main thing here is, for example, you know, if you are going to go to social media, right, you know, social media itself, getting views or getting a fantastic content strategy, you’re not really interested in that. That means nothing for your business at least. Maybe for your ego, I’m not sure. But for your business, it doesn’t mean anything. Like that’s an activity based, right. It’s oh, I want to get fantastic posts. What you’re really interested in and the reason why you would either invest your time, your money, whatever you’re invest to get there is you want a result from that Right. You want something to come out of it, an outcome. And whether that is getting a speaking engagement or, you know, getting an extra two clients per month or extra amount of revenue, whatever that looks like, how you can connect it, that is where, you know, the deep down inside thing is really important. And I love it because one of the things we talk about when I said, as I said before in the objectives in games and gamification, when you do them beyond entertainment, is it is not about, oh, I want to make a racing car game. No, no, that’s not an objective, right? Sometimes clients say, oh, I want people to have fun in the office. Like, no, no, that’s not true. Like, if that were true, you just purchase a few board games, you know, purchase a few TVs and some consoles, people are gonna have fun. Are they gonna work? I don’t think so, but they’re gonna have fun, right? So that’s not the objective. You want something else. Why do you want them to have fun? Why do you want them to. Like, there’s where you start getting into the nitty gritty. It’s hard work. It’s not easy, Right? But it’s where it actually becomes truly, truly meaningful. And Sarah, I love your example, right, because it was about not understanding how that dynamic played. And I’m sure you’ve grown, you know, you had hyper growth from that. And I actually want to live with you once again. But a case of success, right? One of the times where you’re doing something similar to that or something different, or again, you can mention play as well. If that’s. If that’s the case where it actually did work and we want to see what that happened. Some of the maybe success factors that happened in there, like, what was the dynamic going on there? We want to live it with you.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah, I’ll share some external success factors, but it’s also internal for me. Like, I didn’t start out with this mental flexibility around outcome thinking. And for me, like, it’s so cool that when you say it’s not about building a race car game, my brain, the next thing my brain says is it’s about people playing that race car game and ending up in an F3 feeder series, like, that’s the outcome that’s beyond our control. That is. And so for me, just as a, like, as a human with a brain that used to be very concerned about what was expected of me and extrinsic motivation and trying to read minds about what was expected of me, this work has helped me shift my brain to where now I just, I hear those kind of outcome and impact and result goals in everything people say. And that’s really fun. Like, it’s really fun in terms of, you know, external impacts that aren’t me. I think the thing that I hear the most often from clients that still surprises me is this. I didn’t expect this process to be fun. People go in to okrs, and I bet you money we lost listeners when you said the term okrs at the beginning of the episode. Like, there are people who turn this off when you said that acronym. But, you know, with me, like, creating okrs is exploration. It’s envisioning possible futures and then deciding what we agree on and aligning on truths so that we can work better together. So it’s very. It is technical in that we are working hard to get to measurable goals that make sense. And the process of getting there is just so much fun. And it’s fun for me and it’s fun for participants. And I think because expectations are so low, like, people come into an okay, our workshop and they’re like, you know, so, so it, it, you know, maybe that’s not a high bar to overcome, but it is just really fun to see people learn that goal setting doesn’t have to be scary. Goal setting can be something that energizes and encourages you and helps you tap into your intrinsic motivation, which a lot of us become disconnected from as adults. And then the other really fun thing I didn’t expect is the other word that I hear a lot is calm. So once folks have developed OKRs and they’re up and running, I hear it’s just calmer here because there’s clear shared expectations. There’s more curiosity when we have resource collisions. So there’s less anxiety about conflict because data is neutral information. When we’re working with it in this way, we don’t react to our performance. We can stay really deeply curious. And so clients bring me in because they want to implement okrs, and the ones that really take advantage of the transformation come out the other side with more calm, more time to think, a more creative way to work, an experimental way to work together. And it’s just the coolest thing to be able to see.

Rob:
Sarah, I needed to have met you a few years ago when I was leading some of the OKRs in the company, in the group that I was in, the company that I was working. And, you know, they were hard. We were doing that three, four times a year. Not sure it was. It was a weird cycle. It had nothing to do with the calendar year. It was like, yeah, like three, four times a year. But it was, you know, we spent, like, two weeks doing different things to be able to set those. But people were, like, fearing the time they had to spend with me when we were doing this because I was always, like, putting the pressure, like, pushing them to. No, no, no. Yeah, but that’s. As you were saying, like, that’s an activity. I don’t want you to tell me what we need to do. Let’s forget about the solution, how to do it. Like, for now, just forget about that. What is the problem that you need to solve? Yeah, problem I need to solve is people to get to do it. Like, oh, my goodness. It was. It’s really, really tough. And I know. I’m sure that, of course, with the hyper focus that you have on doing this, you’ve heard every story at this point.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yes. And I think it’s so much about the questions we use because you said something at the very beginning and something like, what are we playing for? That’s the perfect question to use in this style of goal setting is, what are we playing for? What would be. If we win, what would that look like? Or if we learn enough to advance to the next level, what might that look like? And it also, you know, you talk about all the effort that people put into goal setting. One of the most transformational key results I ever wrote for myself was early in this business when clients kept mentioning ease or easy. Like, this was easier than I thought. At the end of a workshop, this was really easy. And so I wrote a key result that was something. I can’t remember the exact target, but it was something like 60% of client interactions result in the spontaneous mention of ease or related words. It’s a perfect example. I’m not in control of that, but having a goal like that influences how I work because it kept me focused on ease. And then, you know, yeah, numbers and dashboards are cool, but every time a client said ease, I was like, jackpot. You know, it’s like the coolest thing to be able to hear and experience when it happens. And that’s how we can think differently about any kind of goal setting, but especially about OKRs.

Rob:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, Sarah, we’ve been going, you know, back and forth with all this is there? And I’m sure you have. You could spend the whole podcast or more talking about this, but in a gist, could you tell us how. How does the process of setting these okrs look like? Whether you want to Go for personal, corporate, or a mix of both. Whatever. Like again, whatever works better for you.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yes. So also, I didn’t define objectives and key results to start and I’m a stickler for that.

Rob:
That’s on me. I’m the host, so that’s on me.

Sara Lobkovich:
Oh no, not at all. Yeah, shared words and meanings are actually, I think the most important part of all of this. Objectives and key results is a group goal setting practice that came out of it derived from Peter Drucker, who is Amazing’s work like he was way ahead of his time. And objectives are directional goals. They help us understand what we’re focused on and why it matters. So we only have a few of those and then our key results. Results are empirically measurable or empirically quantified goals that answer the question what would it mean to succeed? Or what does it mean to make progress? And our key results nest under our objectives. So we get in an objective and key result. We get that clarity about our direction, our focus, our why, our shared purpose in our objective. And then we get our clarity about what we’re aiming for in our key results. And the. So that’s the foundation there of OKRs. And now that I did that answer, I can’t remember what your question was. Totally human moments.

Rob:
What would a process of setting these okrs look like, incorporate or maybe. Well, if it’s team setting, of course okrs sort of makes sense. But what would the process of doing that look like? Again, rough overview because I know we could spend all day just talking about this because I know there is so much to cover in that sense.

Sara Lobkovich:
No, the quick version is I believe in creating OKRs very, very quickly because we’re recognizing these are an experiment. There is no right okr because we’re forecasting a future that doesn’t exist yet. We’re imagining a future that doesn’t exist yet. So when I work with people around goal setting, we start with the question of what do you want the future to look like? So we envision the future first. And then while the person envisions the future and writes down their thoughts or I’m taking notes while they talk, what they’re doing is verbalizing their potential objectives and key results. But instead of thinking about goal setting and thinking about the mechanics of objectives and key results, they’re thinking about their business or their work or whatever domain they’re goal setting in. So we start with that big picture vision. Because 90% of what’s ultimately going to become an objective and key result is in that envisioning. And so then it’s just a process of looking at what was envisioned and asking and answering what’s really most important and why does it matter to form our objectives and what would be really incredible to achieve or what might be awesome to achieve if everything goes right, you know, and then that’s how we form our key results. And it’s just that it is. There’s just questions that I’ve experimented with for a long time now that can be used to move people through that process, but also to overcome the activity quicksand when we get stuck in our activity thinking.

Rob:
Cool, cool. Thank you very much for that, Sarah. And Sarah, you know, we’ve. We’ve been talking about this. I’m super excited about objectives. I know. In fact, you were saying that some people just dropped out because of that. I always tell people when we start workshops, this is the first thing that we do, right? We talk about setting the object objectives for your project and tell them, look, this might be the most boring part. This is definitely not what you were expecting when you signed up. But we need to do this right. We need to make sure that this is done right. And bear with me, you know, we can have fun. We can figure out some interesting things as well. But initially, when you hear objectives, it can be like some people can be put off a bit by that, even though, again, how important they are and can get to be. So it’s been very. At least for me, it’s been very exciting to dive deeper into this. And some of the stories is there with these kinds of questions. And I know we talked about not focusing on gamification. I proactively said this before our interview. But knowing that I would ask these kind of questions about gamification or perhaps even about objective setting. Is there somebody that you say, well, I would really be interested in hearing what this person has to say about these things. Again, it could be an ideal person that is not even alive anymore, or it could be a real person. You know, whatever you want to go for is fair game.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah, I mentioned Peter Drucker. I just wish I could sit down and have a meal with Peter Drucker. And he was way ahead of his time. Business thinker, that a lot of the practices that folks like me are building on now started in the 60s and 70s. It might be the 70s, so absolutely ahead of their time. And I just think that Peter Drucker would get such a kick out of what people are doing derived from his work at this point. I think he’d Be really delighted.

Rob:
It’s interesting how you were saying that even the modern practices, right. But you start looking back and it’s not just the modern practice. It’s not like he was ignored for a time that now is his time. It’s incredible how, you know, he’s been sort of at the management forefront and MBAs and so many disciplines within business for so long and now we still keep on discovering things that come from the stuff that he was discussing back in the day. Yeah, it will be lovely. Of course, he’s been gone for what, 20 years or something, but it would be amazing. Maybe we can bring him back with AI, you know, with the whole thing of, you know, putting all his books and being read and then saying, well, talk like Peter Drucker for a bit. I’ve suggested this a couple of times with other people. I think it could be cool.

Sara Lobkovich:
The best dinner table would be Peter Drucker, Edward Deasy who did research on motivation, and Locke Latham on goal theory. Like, I can’t believe I just said that. But that’s like my dream dinner table. That would be so much fun.

Rob:
Sounds super, super excited. DC from DC and Ryan, right? The ones that did the motivation book.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah, exactly.

Rob:
Totally. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, Sarah, keeping up with the recommendations and exciting people, is there a book that you recommend to the engagers? And why would that book be the one you recommend?

Sara Lobkovich:
I’d recommend mine, but we’ll talk about those later. The book that I actually, it’s hard because there are many books that I love and recommend all the time, but when you ask the question, the very first one that came to mind is how to Measure Anything. I am looking behind me because I was going to try and grab it, but I might be a little too far away. But there’s a book, the author’s last name is Hubbard. It’s how to Measure Anything. It’s about measuring the intangibles in business and for people who are struggling with measurable thinking or thinking in terms of data and that data can be neutral and not scary. That book is one that I’ve recommended quite a bit and I just find valuable. It’s an entire book on how to think differently about measurability. Other, I think important books in the space. Ben Lamort does amazing work. He’s got a book out on geared towards OKR coaches. The I’m going to get the title wrong. I always do. But it’s the Field Guide or the Field Book to OKR Coaching by Ben Lamort is a phenomenal book. When I started writing my book. That book had just come out and I didn’t read it because I was so scared that if I read it, I would just say, well, he did it. I don’t need to write my book, like, and have imposter syndrome completely take over. So I didn’t read it right away. I finished my book and then I read his book and I’ve got, like, I wrote an epic Amazon review for him because it is so good. It’s just. It’s a really, really good addition to the canon. And then his other book with Paul Nivens is just called Objectives and Key Results. And that’s a great kind of technical guide to the practice.

Rob:
Cool. Awesome. Those sound like great recommendations. You also mentioned before Measure what Matters. I’m going to include all those links, but the actual recommendation is the first one you said. How to measure Anything. I’ll put all those references Anyway. Sarah, we come to a usually difficult question, but I don’t know what your skills and your hobbies are at this point. What would you say is your favorite game?

Sara Lobkovich:
I actually thought about this quite a bit, and the thing I kept coming back to isn’t really a game, but it’s my other life, as in professional motorcycle road racing.

Rob:
Okay.

Sara Lobkovich:
And so. And I’m a team principal and crew, so I’m not the one on the bike, but I’m part of the system that gets the rider on the bike, on the track, going faster than the last time we were out. And I tried really hard to think of something that was just a game, you know, or an answer. But that is when I think about, you know, where I feel my most engaged and alive. And the thing that I think other people get from gameplay, that’s where I get that is when I’m in the motorcycle paddock.

Rob:
So, you know, these are sports, so sports are games as well. So it’s not a bad answer at all. So it’s motorcycle. Which. Which type of motorcycle tracking, you said?

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah. Road racing. Yep.

Rob:
Road racing. Motorcycle road racing. That makes sense.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yep.

Rob:
So, Sarah, thank you very much for all these key and massive insights that you’ve delivered. You know, this is the final part of the episode, of course. Let us know where we can find out more about you. Your book that you did sort of give a quick intro to about the work you’re doing. Anywhere you want to lead us, this is the right time to do all that.

Sara Lobkovich:
Yeah, you bet I have. The no BS OKRs workbook is available now as a PDF download, and you can find that it’s easier to just use my short URL because my name is awful. But findrc.co is where you can go for a shortcut to my website. My labor of love is the upcoming book it’s called you’d Are a Get Big Things Done with no BS Objectives and Key Results. And that book is a love letter to the strategist in every single one of us who might have been told, you know, you’re not strategic enough and not known what to do with that feedback. Or you’re overcomplicating things and not known what to do with that feedback. So you are A strategist helps us build a toolkit that’s calibrated for mutual understanding and meeting the needs of our colleagues and co workers in how we communicate strategically. But it’s also deeply connected to your intrinsic motivation and to your own. Why so that book is my love letter to my people, those of us who have struggled in our careers or wrestled with what’s wrong with me that I can’t seem to figure out. Everyone else seems to be able to just figure out what’s expected. And I’m here with my antenna up and I have no idea what’s expected of me. So that book helps both make it easier for people to communicate clear expectations with each other and also to enable people to develop their own clear expectations instead of just wondering what’s expected. And you know, my nemesis is the mental refrain of what’s wrong with me? So there’s nothing wrong with any of us. And that voice is just not helpful. So my work at its distillation, my work is about giving us replacements for that voice so that we can live better, stronger, more fulfilling, more impactful careers.

Rob:
Awesome. So the book I was looking at online, it’s the no BS okr workbook. Is that right?

Sara Lobkovich:
Yep. There’s the no BSokr workbook and then there’s you are a strategist and you can find them both@urastrategist.com I also have a It’s like everything I know about goal setting in two worksheets is at FindRC Co Prof. Goalguide. So I’ll send that one to you so that you can get the URL right. But that’s free. You can give me your email address if you want to, but you don’t have to. I just wanted to be able to share a really quick, simple resource to show people that creating an OKR can be done in 15 minutes. And then you can also create a behavior change plan in 15 minutes so with 30 minutes of time. Not only set goals, but then figure out what needs to change so you can achieve them.

Rob:
Awesome. Thank you once again, Sarah. This has been super exciting. A lot of value being delivered there. I’m sure all those resources are going to be downloaded pretty often, are being downloaded pretty often and hopefully the Engagers will benefit from that as well. However, Sarah and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey Engagers and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast and since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you. Just go to professorgame.com freegamification work course, all one word professorgame.com freegamificationscourse and get started today or free after that. We will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that Professor Game might have for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click Continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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