Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Fueling Loyalty with Gamified Business Models: Connor Hiebel | Episode 370

 

If you’re struggling to keep people engaged and loyal in your product or business, Join Our (FREE) Professor Game Community Now & Learn how to create true loyalty: professorgame.com/freecommunity-web

Unpack gamification’s role in driving user engagement and loyalty through a lite, live coaching case. Learn about understanding your audience, defining clear objectives, choosing the right game mechanics, and creating a feedback loop that keeps users motivated. This episode offers valuable insights for businesses looking to stand out with innovative and engaging strategies.

Connor Hiebel is the founder of Amelia Island Microgreens, creator of Jurassic Greens and author of the Amazon best-seller “Let’s Get Growing: A Teen’s Guide to Business Success.” Connor is on a mission to transform reptile care with Jurassic Greens, the world’s first microgreens kit designed exclusively for our scaly friends. With over a decade in the microgreens industry, he’s taken his passion for sustainable, nutrient-packed greens and paired it with gamification to make feeding reptiles healthier and a whole lot more fun!

As an entrepreneur at heart, Connor’s not only changing how we think about pet care, he’s also empowering the next generation of business-minded teens with his book, which inspires young people to turn their big ideas into big successes. From reptiles to microgreens to mentoring future entrepreneurs, Connor’s journey is all about growth—one green sprout at a time!

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

Guest Links and Info

Text “Reptiles” to 26786 in the US for info on reptiles

 

Links to episode mentions:

 

Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez, a consultant and the founder of Professor Game and a professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, if you’re struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make ensure your users stay with you, perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free in the links in the description. So, engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have Connor with us today. But Connor, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Connor Hiebel:
I am prepared to engage.

Rob:
Let’s do this. We have Connor Hebel today. He is the. Well, Hebel, is that. Is that a correct way to. Yes. Fantastic. He is the founder of Amelia Island Microgreens and the creator of Jurassic Greens and author of the amate Amazon bestseller Let’s Get Growing A Teens Guide to Business Success. He’s in a mission to transform reptile care with Jurassic Greens, the world’s first microgreens kit designed exclusively for our scaly friends. He has over a decade in the microgreens industry and taken his passion for sustainable nutrient packed greens and paired it with gamification to make feeding reptiles healthier and a lot more fun. So Connor, welcome to the podcast. We’re excited to have you. Full disclosure, engagers. Uh, yeah, go ahead.

Connor Hiebel:
Thank you for having me. I’m super excited. This is such a cool podcast and it’s just so cool to be a part of it.

Rob:
Fantastic. So again, full disclosure, engagers, this episode might be a little bit different because as Connor was sharing in the pre interview chat, his expertise is not necessarily on games and gamification. So we will be doing something along those lines and see where that lands us. But Connor, can you tell us, how do your days look like? What are you doing? I know we’re recording at 4:30am for you, so thank you for that. But you know, a normal day, what would that, what would that look like?

Connor Hiebel:
So for me, I really take on the saying of normal is just a setting on a washing machine. I don’t really have a set day that’s just like this is exactly how it all goes. It’s like I’ll get up and then I’ll have some health challenges and then it’s like, okay, that was half the day that I wasn’t able to do what I thought I was going to do. And what I found is that that really has led me to be able to really pivot and change what I’m going to do and be able to move forward. So for me, a normal day is just kind of seeing where the day goes and not really having a set, like I’m going to do this. What’s helped me a lot with that is just what are the five things I want to get done today that I’m going to do? And when I have that, then no matter if it’s the beginning of the day or 4:30 in the morning, I’m going to do them.

Rob:
Sounds great. Sounds great. So, Connor, you know, you were, you were sharing before, you know, some of the things that you’ve been trying to do with your Kickstarter and with Amelia Island’s microgreens and that you are trying to introduce gamification, right? So we want to know, like, what does that, like, what have you been doing? How has. Is it a process? Have you followed some steps? Like, what does that look like? What have you. Maybe give us a quick intro into what you have created up until now.

Connor Hiebel:
Okay, yeah, I can totally do that. So, like, I mean, like, you mentioned reptile microgreens, and that’s such an important need in the reptile community. What I found when I teach people how to grow microgreens is there’s that level of disconnect of like, how do I, how do I do this? How do I get myself to grow a plant? Which can be very challenging for a lot of people. So adding in the level of gamification to make it fun to grow something is going to really make a big difference. And I look at my local gym and they have this thing of equipment that is like Pac Man. You go in and you’re doing weights, but you’re like watching this whole game and as you lift your weights, you’re getting. Getting coins. And so adding that level of gamification into something that people may not want to do, but they need to do will really make a huge difference. And so that’s just to clarify for.

Rob:
Those of you who are joining audio. He was doing air quotes right here, Connor. They don’t want to do. So I’m guessing that what you meant in that sense is, you know, in the moment, you don’t have the motivation to do. But deep down, you know, if people are signing up for a gym, why is it? Well, because they want to stick to this gym routine. But it’s hard, right? Are things that are actually hard. Just like the solution that you were mentioning before with your microgreens for sure.

Connor Hiebel:
And I’m in that idea phase of like everything’s happening, it’s all expanding and like, oh, I could do this and I could do this and I could do this. And so it’s definitely, I have to like take a step back and make sure I’m going in the right direction and making sure that it’s exactly what my customers want. Because that’s a big thing. It’s just like I could create the best game but it may not be beneficial for my customers. And so I’m definitely in that stage of. Is this what they’re looking for?

Rob:
Sounds great. Sounds great. So you’re, you’re, you’re basically getting inspired from solutions that you’ve seen around sort of living in the world. Is that, would that be fair? Make sense?

Connor Hiebel:
That would, yes. And I feel like that’s how a lot of games come about is just from that they are like, they just are in day to day life and then all of a sudden that idea hits and that’s what happened for me. The idea of, oh, I can do this and I can do this and this is how this is going to make a difference. So right now I’m looking at doing trading cards where when someone gets a seed refill, they get a trading card that then they can collect all of them and play that game from the trading card and then have an app that every day reminds them to water their microgreens, but does it in a way that’s really satisfying. Like I’m thinking it’s not going to be quite as like amazing, but something like Plant Nanny where you press the water button and then your plant gets watered. Something like that where it’s really cool and makes you really want to be a part of it.

Rob:
That absolutely makes a lot of sense, Connor. And thanks for sharing where you’re at in that sense. So, and that’s, you know, this is sort of the experimental part today. So one of the things, when I hear that, and this is typical, this is common, right? Like we see games and the thing is we usually feel like, oh yeah. And this happens as well with entertainment games too. Like you see a mechanic and you sort of build a game around that mechanic or several mechanics, or you think about something entirely new, a mechanic that did not exist before in other games and you implement it right? So that makes sense in many settings. However, since you are creating whether a game or a gamified strategy for your project, the Thing is gamification. And I’ve said this many times, gamification, all these strategies, they take time, they take effort. So not doing it has effort. X. Doing it takes X plus another amount. Why? Let’s say. So if you’re going to commit that new effort, it has to be giving you some results that you will be pleased with, essentially, like, that they will actually make sense for I put in this Y amount of extra effort and I got this 2y or 10y or 100y results. Right. Because that is what you were looking for. So the first question I would make you, and this is something that. It’s where it all sort of starts, is what are the results that you’re expecting from getting that? And you mentioned, you know, helping people stick to the habit. So that that’s. That makes sense. Right. But I would like, like, the first thing I would like definitely, is to. To maybe dive a little bit deeper than that. Like, why would you want people to do that?

Connor Hiebel:
That is a great question, and it’s one that has been really impactful in why I’m even creating this. I’ve had people who have bought a kit, and back when I started, I was 14, I started selling microgreen kits, and I thought, you know, people are going to start buying the seed refills. Like, it’s just a natural cause. You grow your plant, then you need more. And what I found is that people weren’t buying seed refills. People weren’t motivated to keep reordering and reordering. And later on I realized that was my job, was to get to remind them and to get them on those seed subscriptions so that way they don’t even have to think about it. And what I found was that there was that disconnect because it’s like when they want to go get it, it’s like, oh, but I’m going to have to grow this. So it adds this other level of like, oh, but I’m going to have another thing to do another job.

Rob:
Yeah.

Connor Hiebel:
Yes, exactly. And so if you can make that job fun, then people want to do it. People will spend so many more hours playing video games than they will cleaning the house or doing the dishes because it’s fun and we want to do that.

Rob:
Makes sense. Makes sense. So what you’re looking at here is sort of. And I always like to peel the layers here. So. So the first layer is, of course, you want people to keep on doing this because, you know, that’s. That’s the way the solution works. Right. They have to keep on growing their seeds and so on. But then of course it all goes back to you, to your business. And that makes sense. Don’t get me wrong, that absolutely makes sense. It’s, it’s about combining what the user is going to get out of this because once they buy the kit to be, to be fair, they use it once and it’s not going to be as beneficial for them if they don’t keep using it in the future. Right.

Connor Hiebel:
100%.

Rob:
They buy it with the view that they’re going to be using it, you know, at least as long as they have those, those reptiles around. Right. And if they don’t do it, they’re losing out. Right. And where does that connect to your, you know, to your needs or your strategies? What you’re trying to achieve is in that point of. Oh yeah, because what I want is for them to reorder as well and stay. I want to make it a sticky business. Right. You. It’s not a one time. I always, I always use the example of Realtors and there’s, and don’t get me wrong, there’s fantastic realtors out there, but there’s plenty as well who assume and they know, and this is true that you know, this is going to be a one time client. I’m not going to get them back. So it doesn’t really matter how the experience tastes after this ends. I just want for them to get through it and pay me my money. Right. They don’t really care what happens after the day after, usually with most B2C clients, at least. So that is not your business, right? That’s not the way that your business works. Your business works. Yes, you will have a first experience, a purchase the first product, but then the business also lives on continuing to engage with those players, those consumers. So it makes absolute sense. Right. We’re in a place where you’re trying to help people create a certain habit. Once that is uber clear and very well settled. You know, this is, this is what I like to call. These two things are what I call. I’ve recently turned my. I used to have five or six steps, depending on what that looked like. People always like to have three steps, right. So I broadly generalize them into three things. The first one is what I call deep understanding. And they’re nested inside there. There’s a bunch of things for sure. And understanding the objective broadly generally is definitely the first thing. And there’s a bunch of things to do after. Right. You want to know exactly what are the steps that they do, you know, you want to measure how do you actually see how that is working? Like there’s a bunch of things into that deep understanding of what you want to achieve using games. But then there’s another thing which I think is also super important. You need to understand and to not only have it clear in the back of your mind, which I. Sure, I’m sure you do, you’ve been doing this for several years now. You need to understand who are your players, who are they essentially, what are they doing, you know, what are their habits, what do they enjoy if they’re gamers, what games are types of games they’re playing typically, what do they enjoy, what gets them? Know what makes those games sticky for them. Because then once you really understand that and you put it in black and white, like I always recommend, whether it’s physical writing or in your computer, whatever you want to really write down, who is that typical avatar or person? What are their habits? What are the things that you’ve observed that you’ve seen? And once you have all that, I actually suggest even going further, trying to interview one or two of your users who might be, you know, ideally they’re these sort of early adopters, so to speak, those people who are already looking for a solution to the problem, like they’re struggling to keep the, that habit, but every now and then they do make a reorder and then they realize the plant dies again. I don’t know exactly how it works, but you know, those people that are struggling are already looking for a solution. You want to talk to those people and see who they are, how do they behave, what are they looking for, what are their problems, right? So you really, really understand what it is that you can create for them. Because then is when you, I suggest, at least that’s the way that I work. Then is when I suggest to start building. Then you decide whether you know, what are the mechanics. If it’s going to be a card game. I have the latest card game. I decided for many reasons, right? I have a physical card game that I’ve been creating with my class of supply chain management. You do the mechanics, you do all that because now you really understand what it is that you want to achieve. And the mechanics almost sort of roll the mat, sort of almost rolls in front of you, like, oh, of course, this is what I want to achieve. These are the people that I want to achieve it with. These are the possibilities. These are the best ideas that I can put forward. And then it’s maybe about picking, then you prototype and test with these people and all that. Does that make sense to you? Does that make sense?

Connor Hiebel:
Oh, that makes total sense. That is, like, so much clarity. And it’s. It reminds me of. You don’t want to create a game for yourself. You want to create the game for your audience. Because what I might want may not be the same as what they want. And so going back to the target audience is so incredible because you want to know what they. They’re looking for. That is so, so good.

Rob:
How does that strike you? Like, from your experience with your audience, how would you like. I don’t know, briefly, or not so briefly? How would you describe the people that actually are currently your clients and microgreens that have been purchasing it and then sort of lose interest or the habit or whatever that looks like?

Connor Hiebel:
So that’s an interesting question, because I have the microgreens for the people, and so I have a niche, like, the target audience for that with the microgreens for the reptile. I haven’t really done a lot of a ton of research, so I’m not, like, I can’t tell you exactly perfectly what they’re like. I can give you ideas of roughly what they are, but not as. As precise.

Rob:
But that’s good to get started somewhere, right? Like, you have some understanding. And from that, you. You say, well, what am I missing? Like, what do I still not understand that I want to.

Connor Hiebel:
Yeah. And the more that you talk about that, the more I realize how patched up my target audience is for my reptiles. I have a rough idea in the sense that I know that reptile owners, like, you think of a reptile and you think of, like, dragons or dinosaurs. And a lot of people who have reptiles, they think they wanted one because of that, like, whole fantasy experience of, like, watching shows like that. And like, that’s one of the reasons why I got a reptile, is like, dragons and stuff like that. It’s just so cool. And so I know that they’re in that fantasy element, and I don’t know exactly where. Where they branch off from there, if that makes sense.

Rob:
No, absolutely, absolutely. But actually, it doesn’t. Like, one of the things that I see there. And again, this is from a bunch of things. I don’t know if I mentioned it at the start, but as the engagers might know, this is something that I do. Like, sitting on these kinds of conversations for an hour every week or an hour every two weeks or an hour a month, and helping people run through this is something I do professionally. Like, this is one of the things that I do as a consultant is not always get involved in myself doing the solution. But some people are, I want to get my hands dirty in this, and I want to do stuff. So I sit down with them and look at what their situation is. And these are some of the things that start coming up, right? So the first thing is when you think of this, and I love the fact that you come already from having a certain angle, because I’m sure there is a group of people who have reptiles for that reason, and there’s another group of people who just don’t care about that and they like it for another thing, right? But that’s fine. You don’t want to target everybody in the world, right? Following your niche, and then you’ll realize how big your niche is and all of that, but that’s fine. But focusing on a group of people, right? A subgroup of people in the smaller, sometimes almost the better, makes you have a laser focus and then be able to arrive to those super fans, those people who will be excited about getting that solution. They will use it. You know, they will try it, even with all the faults and mistakes it might have at the beginning. They will help you build it up. They’ll tell everybody about it, right? All of their friends who also have reptiles, will know that they’re doing this fantasy thing. They’ll say, oh, you again, talking about Amelia Green’s, you know, stop it. Yes, I will purchase what you’re saying. You just stop talking, talking about it. And that’s the way where you can start actually to expand. And then, you know, maybe you realize that you can do other things and say, well, you know, it’s not just about this small niche audience. What else can I do to build into a slightly bigger audience and so on and so forth. But you don’t want to focus on absolutely everybody from the start. That’s a mistake. And that’s easy to fall into that trap because we think, oh, I’m losing out on these potential customers, and you’re not. You’re winning in on all of the ones that you’re actually engaging. Create for everybody, and you create for nobody, Right? You need to focus. So I love that. I love that. Connor and Connor, you know, we’ve done a quick brainstorming here of where you’re at and what are some. Maybe some of the steps forward you’ve heard, you know, some of the. A couple of episodes before of the podcast, at least, you know, you know what the vibe is. Is there somebody that you would like to hear answering these questions again, whether you met them before or not, whether you’ve. I don’t know they’re live or not even. Who would you like to hear answering these questions and giving you some insights into gamification and game based strategies?

Connor Hiebel:
I think it would be really cool to Hear from Jane McGonigal with Games for Change to just talk about how games and gamification can really impact mental health. I think that would be such a cool one.

Rob:
Absolutely. She has a book and an app called Super Better. That’s not the typical one that we get recommended. They usually talk about the Reality is broken book, which is prior to that one also fantastic. But I would say Jane McGonagall has been the most requested potential appearance of the podcast. She was the first one as well. The first one, Yukai Chow back in the day. He said he would like to listen from her and I think recent episode that came live has also been so Jane McGonagall is definitely on our view for the future on the podcast. Thank you for that recommendation, Connor. And you mentioned that you’re kind of a book buff in many ways before.

Connor Hiebel:
I am.

Rob:
For this audience. For this audience, I mean, you’ll tell me how many books you’ve read in a second. But for this audience, is there a book that you would recommend for them to get inspired? I don’t know. Wherever you want to take this.

Connor Hiebel:
Atomic Habits. Because if you know how people create habits, then you’ll know how to get people to play your game and to want to create like just be a part of your game, be immersed in it. When you know the cue craving response reward that we have, it really makes such a huge difference in anything you do. And on top of that, you can learn the habits so that you can start creating that game that you’ve just had in the back of your mind. But you haven’t done it yet because there’s just been that thing holding you back. So it helps you in so many different way ways. That is by far my favorite book I’ve ever read.

Rob:
Wow. Fantastic. And it’s all the way in our line as well, so. Love it. Love it. James Clear’s Atomic Habits. Thank you for that recommendation, Connor. Now we get to what many would say is a very difficult question.

Connor Hiebel:
Okay, I’m up for a difficult question.

Rob:
What is your favorite game?

Connor Hiebel:
Ooh, I have to say Minecraft would be my favorite. There’s just something about having a game that I can just like walk around and do whatever I want. But then there’s also like so servers that I can play on. There’s just a few other different things you can do. As far as board game, I would have to say Ticket to ride is my favorite ticket to ride.

Rob:
I’ve heard that a few times, but I haven’t played it myself. Like, to be honest. I’m trying to bring to mind what does it even look like? And I haven’t even seen it, I.

Connor Hiebel:
Think so it’s like there’s maps and there’s like the eu, the us, Asia. I think there might be one for Africa. And it’s the maps of the trains in the countries. And it reminds me of Monopoly mixed with chess where it’s like strategic but yet it has like. It’s just such a cool game because you have these cards and each card has a color and you have to get so many colored cards to be able to put your trains down. If you don’t put it down in time, someone else can take the train that you need. And you’re trying to get from like Winnipeg to Santa Fe or like you have all these different destinations and they’re all different for everyone. It is such a cool game.

Rob:
Sounds absolutely brilliant. It’s fantastic. I mean, it sounds like a kind of game. How many players is it for?

Connor Hiebel:
At least two. It goes up to about four or five.

Rob:
Cool, cool. I always like to have games that include two players because then I can be at home and just play with my wife and that’s always a perk.

Connor Hiebel:
And the game changes when you have more people. So when it’s two people, it’s not as intense because there’s only so many paths you have. So if you have like four people, then there’s going to be two people who cannot go the same path that you might want to go.

Rob:
Okay, interesting, interesting. Sounds very, very good. Thank you for that recommendation. And Connor, I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to mention. This is the time for, you know, if you want to mention your Kickstarter or you know, the product that you’re there with and any, of course, any final piece of advice that you might have for the audience. This is your time, essentially.

Connor Hiebel:
Wow. Okay. Can I do a text opt in?

Rob:
What do you mean?

Connor Hiebel:
Where they text a number so that they can get a gift.

Rob:
Oh, sure, you can do that. Just keep in mind that a significant part of our audience is in the US but there’s a bunch of people out outside. Fantastic.

Connor Hiebel:
If you text reptiles to 26786, then you’ll receive some information on reptile microgreens, how to grow them, as well as information on the Kickstarter. And that’s reptiles to 26786 and you just go in your messages like you’re going to type a number. And then as far as advice, just be persistent, consistently persistent, and you will make it through.

Rob:
Sounds like a very good advice, especially when we’re talking about building habits and doing that. I heard many times and this is one of the persons who inspired me to actually do a podcast. Not on gamification in particular, but he said, you know, if you want to be a podcaster, what do you have to do? You have to do a podcast. And maybe not day one, maybe day one you’ll be a podcaster, but you won’t be great. So you have to just keep on doing it, keep on doing it, learn from your mistakes and hear yourself every now and then, even though you might cringe. And then see how you can continue to improve. Thanks again Connor for waking up super early to be here at 4:30am Your time. I wasn’t aware of this until I got an email from you guys last night, but yeah, so thank you for sharing that and for taking the time to be here and sharing your experience, you know, having a time as well to do a little, you know, micro quick coaching on what your stages are right now. Engagers, if this is something that you’re interested in, you know where you can reach me and I’d love to be working with you as we just did with Connor. Connor, however, and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you. Just go to professorgame.com freegamification work course, all one word, professorgame.com freegamificationscourse and get started today for free. After that we will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that Professor Game might have for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click Continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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