Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Dave Faliskie With Rapid Prototyping | Episode 372

 

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Can planning marketing be a make-or-break decision? This episode of the Professor Game podcast also offers a comprehensive look into the iterative development process and the importance of user-centric design. We explore how failures can be powerful learning tools and how engaging with users early can shape the app’s future direction. Our guest discusses his success with a mobile game that addresses environmental issues and highlights the impact of rigorous user research. Tune in for valuable insights on crafting meaningful and engaging user experiences through gamification.

Dave is a software developer specializing in mobile apps. He’s currently building Roads Audio, an app designed to enable asynchronous, podcast-like conversations with the goal of helping people maintain deeper relationships. Dave also runs a YouTube channel, 1ManStartup, where he shares insights and tutorials on app development. Earlier this year, he won a competition sponsored by Global Citizen and Google with his mobile game Last Bottle, which sheds light on the often-overlooked truths of recycling.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez, a consultant and the founder of Professor Game and a professor of gamification and games based solutions at IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, if you’re struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make sure your users stay with you, perhaps you will find our free gamification course useful. Find it for free in the links in the description so hey engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. We are with Dave here today. So Dave, are you prepared to engage?

Dave Faliskie:
I am, yes.

Rob:
Let’s do this. Dave is a software Dave Falisky.

Dave Faliskie:
Falisky, yes.

Rob:
Falisky is a software developer specializing in mobile apps. He’s currently building Rhodes Audio, which is an app designed to enable asynchronous podcast like conversations with the goal of helping people maintain deeper relationships. And he also runs a YouTube channel, One Man Startup, where he shares insights and tutorials on app development. Earlier this year he won a competition sponsored by Global Citizens and Google with his mobile game Last Bottle, which sheds light on the often overlooked truths of recyc. So Dave, is there anything we’re missing that we should know about you?

Dave Faliskie:
No, I think you covered the main highlights for sure.

Rob:
Amazing. So Dave, what does a regular day with you look like? We were chatting before about, you know, you looking into, looking into marketing. But you’re a developer so you know, I don’t know if that’s what you’re normally doing nowadays or what are you up to?

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, it depends. I mean, recently actually, I guess it’s a little bit different than maybe the past year for me. But a normal day typically will be I’ll wake up and maybe the first three hours are doing nothing. Like maybe I’ll read a little bit or just kind of get started with the day. But I’m definitely not a morning person. So yeah, the first couple hours are for sure, just like slugging along, maybe email. But then I try and get some work done and that can mean various things. It could be doing marketing stuff or actually writing code, doing development stuff. Yeah, it kind of always depends. I mean I think as kind of like a, I would say like as a one man startup, as I as I like to call it on the YouTube channel, you do kind of end up wearing a lot of hats. So there isn’t, I guess the Work itself varies a lot, but yeah, I also am recently trying to. Well, I am training for a marathon, so that’s been taking up a lot of my time. Uh, that’s actually next weekend, so.

Rob:
Wow.

Dave Faliskie:
Hoping to. That’ll be my first one, so. Hoping to get that kind of over with and then that, that. Yeah, that eats up quite a bit of time for sure, like training and all of that. But yeah, then I, I normally like, work a bit in the evening as well if I didn’t get things done. So it’s, it’s definitely very flexible. I don’t have like a, A set schedule. Um, but yeah, it’s great. I mean, I like the, I like that flexibility for sure.

Rob:
Awesome. And you mentioned the, the. The marathon. I, I managed to get to the half marathon. Um, and some months back, my back and my knee said, you know, this is as far as we’ll take you in this kind of sports, so, you know, no, no more impact on us. So I didn’t get to the, to the marathon stage, but it was something I was pretty excited about training for eventually. But it’s just not going to happen, man. So. So do a good one for me. A good one. Finishing and surviving and, you know, not breaking anything.

Dave Faliskie:
That’s the goal. Just finish, finish and not be injured and just go slow. So that’s my. For the first one, at least for me.

Rob:
It’s interesting how, like, I love the concept of the Iron man races, right? Like, oh, my God, you do this thing and you feel like, yeah, they’re like a superhuman or whatever. But then I like, I’ve. Everybody I’ve talked to, and this seems to be a general thing. There is no way of doing that without getting a certain level of injury after the fact. So it kind of confuses me. Why would you want to do some sporty thing that doesn’t leave you, I mean, not extra tired? You know, I like, get. I get like having a week off or, I don’t know, even a month thought. But getting even slightly injured for sure is something I would not look forward to doing after I found out this information. And I’m sure anybody who gets that far to actually even register for it knows, knows about like even, you know, destroying your toes or whatever.

Dave Faliskie:
It’s just interesting for me, I guess it does kind of make sense. It’s like pushing the body to the limit and it will break.

Rob:
Yeah, exactly. You’re actually getting to the limit kind of, kind of situation. Totally, totally. So, Dave, you’ve had a run on game design with the game you mentioned before, as a developer, I’m sure you’ve run into these kinds of situations as well in the past. Is there a story you can tell us about failure or failure first attempt in learning, as we like to call it as well? Because failure is not fatal, it’s not final. Right. We always come out on the other end. Can you tell us about that story in any of these contexts so that we can learn some lessons with you? Essentially, yeah.

Dave Faliskie:
I mean, there’s been many, I guess, apps and websites that I’ve attempted to build and failed at. And I guess you could look at it as a failure or like a learning experience. And I look at it as kind of both. But with each one, there’s definitely something that comes out of it each time that goes into the next one and helps build that. So, yeah, as we kind of briefly mentioned before, like right now I’m kind of like focusing on marketing a lot more for, especially for the current app I’m building. And that’s something I kind of learned the harder way. In a past app that I built where it was like there was like no actual plan for marketing. And I kind of did the same thing with this one in that I built it first or like started building it first and didn’t really do the marketing upfront. But it’s now. Yeah, it’s something I’m focusing on now more with all these failures of building an app and thinking, oh, people are just going to download this, of course it’s on the app store. They’ll just come and download it and everyone’s going to love it, build it.

Rob:
And they will come. Right. So that’s a magical phrase we heard in that beautiful movie, but it doesn’t very well apply to real life endeavors.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah. So that I think is probably a big lesson that I guess I continually learn. It’s like every time it’s. It’s like the, the importance of the marketing is. Is shown to me. Um, but yeah, I don’t think there’s anything. I guess there’s nothing I like really regret though. Cause I do also think maybe you do need to build. Maybe you need to build the first app that’s. That’s kind of awful. And maybe it’s a good thing that no one actually uses it, you know, because if your first app kind of goes viral or you get like this huge marketing traction, it’s a good problem to have. But it’s also something that maybe you wouldn’t be ready to, to tackle at that early stage of Just learning how to build an app.

Rob:
Cool. Cool. So I love it. One of the things there is, it is true that we cannot see everything before it actually happens, 100%. But it is also true that once we realize, oh yeah, what might have made this app, something I really lacked there was having some form of a plan of marketing, I would even personally, from my experience, I would even dive a little bit further and say it’s not just marketing, but it’s also from a product manager perspective. My past life, I was a product manager as well. And I like to refer to that, the strategies especially. It sounds markety to talk to users and to understand their needs and how they’re using this app and how they’re solving those problems. But you don’t even have to use it as a marketing campaign per se. It can be even user research and understanding what are the things. Because you have always, you have a bunch of options like where to go next, what’s the next part of the app to develop, what to focus on, what to highlight on the app. It’s always better to really know what they’re thinking of it. Like real potential people who might be using the app. And the earlier you do that, the earlier you get people to start using it for real, the better you’ll be able to focus yourself. So I love that learning and it’s a continual learning, as you’ll see.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, definitely. And I guess as one example of like kind of that, of learning that kind of the hard way with this app, I’ve. I have been the app I’m currently building, I have been asking people more of what they want the. Those features to be the current users and seeing kind of what the next feature should be. And it’s definitely been, it’s definitely been more helpful to go about it that way versus, like being like, oh, I know people are going to want this, but then maybe no one actually does want that.

Rob:
Usually we don’t really know. We have great hypothesis, educated guesses, but that’s as far as it usually goes. So let’s turn it around and actually go for a story of success. Something that went well for you or that you’re satisfied or pleased with the results. You got to see if maybe you can share with us some of the things you think were part of that success criteria to get there.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, I mean, I could talk a bit about the last Bottle game. I think that ultimately was a success. It was part of a competition and I did win a few of the categories in the competition. So in that regard it was a success for especially, I guess, within the context of what it was being in that competition. And I think a few things that led to it being a useful app were that it was very simple, but it also had a message involved in it. So there was kind of. There was kind of a point to the app as a whole, which I think resonates with. Or it resonated with the. Maybe with the bigger thing of this hack. It was kind of like a hackathon that it was in. And a little bit of background, I guess, of this hackathon is that it was for sustainable development, and not even app development, but just sustainable global development and, and giving people more of a. Either. Either giving them education or something that they could do to help the environment. And then the app that I ended up doing was kind of almost like an education on the way that recycling works, but it was kind of kept simple. And really the way that the game ended up working was that it made it very difficult to win. So you couldn’t. You couldn’t actually win the game easily, which was supposed to mirror the way that recycling is kind of happening in the real world, where even if you do recycle something, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to get reused and kind of get people. The idea, I guess, was to get people frustrated by using the app and then that would kind of.

Rob:
That’s the target you were aiming for. So if you got them frustrated, that’s actually the result that was necessary, right?

Dave Faliskie:
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I think having like, kind of that like thread of a story or thread of an idea within a. Within a project can be. Can make it successful or be almost like the app will stand for something more than just the game itself or just the. Just the initial purpose of what the app is.

Rob:
Sounds fantastic. I love it. Because if you think about it, one of the things that you’re saying there is what made your game successful was making it not just a game. Don’t get me wrong, there’s huge successes in games that are just games. They don’t have to have a message. But precisely in this world where we are living right now in Professor Game, the way we think of games is they’re either a game with a purpose, as you were saying before, or they are to gather inspiration from that game to do something that actually reaches something. And this can be ultimately a high objective in the sense, as you were saying, like recycling, cycling and saving or helping save the environment or anything. Like, could be a business metric. Right. Like, how do I get my business to take off, right. How do I get my app to take off? You know, and gamifying that process could be something that could be very, very interesting after that experience that you got there. Right. I’m curious, like that was a hackathon, so it was probably, you know, and I think it’s a good thing when we get into the hackathon mentality, if we need to get something out there fast, quick so people can see it. And if what you do with that is get it in front of potential real users, then you can get some feedback and continue building. And if you, maybe not the stress involved, you have like two days or something like that of a hackathon, but if you keep on building with that same style of rhythm and again getting feedback and building more, getting feedback and building more, maybe it’s something, I would argue it’s something that can get you further faster and better in fact. But I don’t know if that makes sense to you, but especially I was curious too, what was your process maybe in the hackathon or if you have some sort of process for developing, if you have thought about developing a game ever, what’s the process? What does that look like? Do you have anything like that that you could share?

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, definitely. I mean this game specifically, I guess within this hackathon was really the first game I actually developed. So normally most of the apps and websites I’ve done are more non game related. Sometimes there’ll be like a little bit of game features within them, but not really. So yeah, I could, I guess I could tell you about the process that I went about building or coming to this game, if that is that. Would that be good or.

Rob:
Yeah, for sure.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah. So I mean the first thing I, I guess the first thing I was thinking was it would be, I, I originally the original idea was much different than what it ended up being. So originally it was, it was going to be kind of like a sor of trash or a sorting of like trash to recycling. Like a bottle would fall down maybe and you could choose should this get recycled or should this go to the trash and kind of doing like a recycling sorting thing like that. And then I started doing a little bit of research into like, into like what would be sorted correctly. So really doing research into I guess the specific background of recycling which then led me to kind of figure out that recycling isn’t really super efficient. And then so with that in mind, once I, once I kind of learned that new feature or it’s not even a feature it’s really a bug of the recycling process. But once I learned that information, I guess then the idea of the game changed completely and it was like, oh, how do you get this kind of emotion that I just learned online is shown in a game? How do you get. How can I get people to kind of see that this is a broken system by playing a game that is basically a broken game, or gets them that same kind of frustration that mirrors the real world. So then, yeah, once that idea was there, it was way more of a compelling thing to build as well. That seems way more exciting than. Than just building a sorting kind of. Like really the sorting thing was a pretty basic idea, I would say. Like, most people would probably be able to think of that. And then the actual idea, I think, is a little bit more, maybe novel or slightly more creative in some ways. So, yeah, I think part of the process I would go about with building the next game would be something like that. Like trying to come up with something that’s that is different, that is like novel and has again, like that message or some sort of message to it, but also has. Yeah. Also has like something kind of new or different and then that. Yeah, go ahead.

Rob:
No, no, I was gonna say, like that. That’s. For me, it’s like really understanding what it is that you want to get to. And sometimes there’s small things that, you know, as you were saying, it’s not the overarching, like, what’s all the whole recycling. Like, you don’t want people to know everything about recycling. Right. Because that’s, you know, that’s not necessarily something that you can give you really, that super focus. It’s. What’s that thing about recycling that you want to make sure people understand? It’s that thing. It’s not, again, it’s not everything. If you manage to do that thing right, you can. You can really make sure that you achieve something. Instead of trying to, you know, sort of boil the ocean, you grab, you know, a cup and you boil that and say, oh, you know, I boiled a bit. Which is what I would actually able and really able to manage.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, I think that definitely also. I agree with that completely. Like picking the one thing that you want to show or exploit in a way in the game and then only going after that one thing. It keeps it. Yeah, it definitely keeps it more focused, keeping a focus. I think especially in a hackathon or something, or a small version of a product that you’re trying to make. It’s very important to have like one focus Thing that you’re. You’re just trying to do and get that one thing done.

Rob:
So after that experience that you had, you know, there you said, you know, there’s the idea and then you’re actually building, you’re doing the build, the creation of the game. How do you go about it? Is it, you know, you think about the theme, you think about gaming. Like what do you do after you have understood what it is? That’s the message that you were saying that you want to get through what will be a next step if again, if. When you did it back then or if you would be able to. Looking forward to do it again?

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, I guess the next step, I think. Well, for me the next step was really just starting to draw it out. So it immediately became more practical. It was like as soon as the idea is, as soon as there was enough of an idea, the next step would be actually putting. I normally use an iPad and just draw like just really rough sketches of what the game would look like. Cool. So, yeah, I try to get to the practical kind of building side of things as fast as possible as well. So I don’t know if it would be useful to talk about how in depth of the technical stuff it gets, but I can go into that. Or do you mean more of the general game mechanics or ideas of how.

Rob:
You came up with the ideas? Because our audience is not going to be like, I am a software engineer, but I don’t think most of the people in the audience actually have the technical expertise to really dive into those depths at this point at least.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, that for sure makes sense. Yeah, I think, I guess looking at other games that I’ve played would be one component of that. So how can I make this. How can I not reinvent the wheel and maybe use some aspects of other games to get this message across? And then again, this is kind of what I do in the prototyping. So I’m doing this kind of just drawing. And I’ll consider. At one point I considered it being kind of like a Mario like game where the screen is moving and you’re just the character there. And then it ended up becoming one of those dropping one of those falling games where you’re avoiding obstacles, which is another common, I think, game pattern. So the game, I guess itself wasn’t like a unique gameplay. But I was using and looking at other game mechanics that other popular games use and I think that’s a useful thing as well, especially if it’s maybe your first game to kind of copy portions of other Games that people might be familiar with and then make them your own or put a twist on it to make it your own.

Rob:
Makes total sense. Thank you for that, Dave. And Dave, after hearing these questions, Right, maybe, maybe you’ve, you know, when you did your research and when you’ve been thinking about creating, you know, like you were saying before, maybe gamifying some of the features you do with your apps or creating the game or a feature game, maybe you have, you know, I don’t know, found inspiration somewhere or heard of someone who does a great job, in your opinion on doing this. Is there a future guest that you would like to hear answering these questions maybe to get even more inspiration again for you and hopefully as well for the engagers.

Dave Faliskie:
One potential guest I think that could be really interesting is if you got in contact with someone from Global Citizen, which is actually one of the people that put on that hackathon, because what they do is they’re trying to gamify this whole. This whole social movement of environmental sustainability, and they actually have their own app that they use and reward people for doing real things in life. So they kind of are. Yeah, they’re in that gamified world. And I heard a little bit about what they do through this competition, but it would be very interesting to hear more about how they’re really using these game concepts in applying it directly to a very hard and big problem and getting people kind of motivated through that avenue.

Rob:
Awesome. Awesome. If eventually you sort of have somebody that was your contact or I don’t know anybody in there, that would be amazing to get an introduction. Sounds like very interesting stuff that they’re doing there.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Rob:
And Dave, talking of inspiration and people who you might be interested in, is there a book that you recommend, the Engagers, this audience interested in game design, gamifying and so on?

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, actually, probably I could give you one fiction and one nonfiction if that’s depending on how people. Which people prefer. But I found Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. I don’t know if. Yeah, I believe it’s called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. And that is a fiction book, but it’s about kind of like a game designer and the story of. Of these two people really, who are. Who are building games. And that actually inspired me a bit to build this last bottle game. I felt like some of the inspiration came out of. Out of that book.

Rob:
Nice.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, because at one point in the book, they kind of had a game that they built where the end of the game, the outcome of the game made you kind of it wasn’t what you thought, so that kind of was. That gave me the inspiration to make a game that was meant to be frustrating. So, yeah, that book, definitely. And then biggest it in your game. Yeah, exactly. And then maybe on more of like a practical, like, technical level, there’s a book called Irresistible, which is. It talks a lot about. It talks a good bit about game development, but even more just app. Just specifically app development and how apps have. How really like, kind of like the psychology of how people are addicted to apps now. And I think knowing that information, especially if you’re building a game, is very useful because there’s general concepts in there that are good to know. Not necessarily to fully use them yourself and get people addicted to your app, but it’s good to think that way. Or what gets people addicted to using the same product over and over.

Rob:
Makes sense. Makes sense. When you were describing the book, I was thinking of the book Hooked by Near Al.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah.

Rob:
In the same vein.

Dave Faliskie:
It’s definitely similar.

Rob:
Yeah, totally makes sense. Love that. And you know, in this, in this world of, you know, game design and gamification and all that, I know, you know, your. Your deep expertise is more on the development side, but is there something that you would say was. Was your is or your superpower something that you do better at least than most of the other people around you?

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, I guess my. I guess my quote unquote superpower would be along the lines of being able to kind of get something up and running quick or prototyped quick or built, and even more, being able to kind of build almost like more than just one sliver of it. So being able to kind of do a decent job at the design and a decent job at the gameplay and a decent job at kind of like all aspects of a full featured product, which I think is quite hard for most people to do.

Rob:
That’s certainly something that is difficult in many different ways. So thank you for sharing that, Dave. And in this same vein of recommendations that we’ve been discussing, I’m going to actually change the difficulty. Right. We’re going to go for. What would you say is your favorite game?

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I really, actually don’t play that many games anymore, unfortunately. Really now the most time I spend playing games is actually when I’m flying. So in the. In the airplane, I have a few games that I’ll play, which now really, I mean, the big one that comes to mind is like the, the balloons tower defense is. I feel like I play that every time I fly but probably my favorite game would be, would be Mario. I guess in, in historically that I definitely spent a lot of time playing that like as a kid and the various different versions of it like starting on the Game Boy and then all the way through to even like the Nintendo Switch. But yeah, I, so I like those games. I don’t. I never really got too deep into like the, the more I guess robust games. And now I feel like you can play a game and it’s like you’re, you’re like. It feels like a whole nother world. But yeah, I’ve always kind of been more of the casual game or like that, that Mario style kind of like simpler type of games.

Rob:
Makes sense actually. I never like sometimes people when they see the title of podcast what I do, my experience is you must be like a top gamer or something. No, no. If esports had been invented for when I was young enough, right. You know, there’s a period when you get like I think it’s like 25 top esports players start declining. So if, if that was a thing when I was 25 or before, I would not have been a famous esports player even if I had wanted to. I think I did not have that in me. I was more of a, you know, Mario and even competitive games like I love to play Fortnite but I’m not going to be at the top of the leaderboard anytime soon or probably ever in any case. But yeah, it’s those people.

Dave Faliskie:
They play, they’re playing all. You know, it’s their, it’s. I mean it is like their full time job. So it makes, it makes sense that they’re much better. You need absolutely but $100 a weekend.

Rob:
Cristiano Ronaldo, you know, trains at a level beyond everybody else. But I, I’m pretty sure that if I had trained at his level, I would still not be half the footballer he is.

Dave Faliskie:
Right.

Rob:
Or Messi. That’s a good fans of everybody. Like that’s what I’m saying. Like there’s, there are some, some, some features that get you to that super top stuff. Like I could probably get to be pretty good. I don’t even know if you know, fourth league league or whatever. But I would probably never even play in a premier top league. You know, the team not, not even, you know, be a good player on that. Like just be there like sitting on the bench. I’m not even sure I would get there no matter how much I trained. Right. We can always get to be better.

Dave Faliskie:
I feel like the same like you.

Rob:
Can, you can get to be a lot better in many things, but there are some things where you can be at the top of the game and there’s others, like, no matter how hard you try, you’re. You’re gonna get somewhere. You’re not going to get as far as some other people have maybe some natural talents. I know exactly what it is, but I don’t know, maybe it’s my mind limiting me. I don’t, I’m not sure, but I.

Dave Faliskie:
Almost feel like with that kind of stuff, it’s like the people that are, that get obsessed with it, they have like a. I guess maybe there is a tendency, they have a tendency to it, but then that does make them much better. And then just by the fact that you’re not like obsessed with it, you won’t, you won’t get as good as them.

Rob:
Makes sense. Makes sense. So, Dave, thanks a lot for sharing, you know, your story, your insights, all the stuff you’ve been doing. We’re getting to the end of the interview, so it’s your time. You have any final words you want to lead us somewhere to? I don’t know, some call to action, I don’t know where we can find out more about you, your work, your app. It’s your time.

Dave Faliskie:
Yeah, sure. So I guess if you want to connect with me on X or Twitter, it’s just Dave Filiski. And then my app is Rhodes Audio, if you want to check that out. That’s the main app I’m building now and it’s a private podcast app, so you can create a podcast with your friends and chat asynchronously through that. But I guess ultimately I would say if anyone is trying to build something or wants to has an inclination to build a game or start or build an app or really try doing anything new, the best thing to do is just to actually start and just give it a go, give it a try. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn’t, but at least you, I mean, yeah, even spend a week on it and see what happens and maybe you’ll hate it, maybe you’ll love it and then go from there.

Rob:
Makes a lot of sense. Love that. So thanks again, Dave, for sharing your insights, your experience with us today. However, Dave and Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey, engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you are into gamification and game inspired solutions, how about you go into the free gamification course that we have for you. Just go to professorgame.com freegamification work course, all one word professorgame.com freegamificationscourse and get started today for free. After that we will also be in contact and you will be the first to know of any opportunities that Professor Game might have for you. And remember, before you go on to your next mission, before you click Continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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