Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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The Evolution of Game Reality with Bobby Voicu | Episode 374

 

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“Look at what people say about other similar games and try to implement that into your game, then give it your own twist.” – Bobby Voicu. Dive into the fascinating world of mixed reality technology and gaming, exploring how Mixrift is shaping immersive experiences. Learn about Bobby’s journey from his previous successful gaming venture, Mavenhut, and discover insights on the evolving game development landscape.

Serial entrepreneur Bobby Voicu is the CEO and Founder at MixRift, a mixed reality technology company building accessible solutions for immersive experiences. Headquartered in Dublin with teams across Portugal and Romania, MixRift represents a new wave of pan-European tech companies. This follows Bobby’s previous successful exit when he sold his gaming company, Mavenhut. Having achieved a $1.6M pre-seed funding in a rapid 7-week pre-seed funding round for MixRight, Bobby’s track record in scaling and exiting tech companies, combined with his insights on the evolving technology landscape, make for an engaging story.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

Guest Links and Info

 

Links to episode mentions:

 

Key Discussion Points:

  • The challenges and insights of building and scaling a mixed reality game company.
  • Lessons learned from both successes and setbacks in game development, particularly from their experience with Meta Quest and mobile gaming.
  • Importance of balancing what game developers want to create versus what players want.
  • Insights into prototyping, user testing, and the unique challenges faced by indie game developers.
  • The future of mixed reality in gaming and why it’s a must-experience technology.

 

Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez. I’m a consultant, I’m a coach and I’m the founder here at Professor Game and I’m also a professor of gamification and game inspired solutions at IE University, IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, feel struggling with engagement in your business and are looking to find out how to make your users stay with you. You will find our free community full of resources quite useful. You can find it for free in the links below in the description. Hey engagers. And welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast. And we have today with us Bobby Voichu Voiku vo. He is the CEO and founder at Mixrift. But Bobby, before we get started we need to know, are you prepared to engage?

Bobby Voicu:
I am prepared to engage. Since the beginnings, man, we’re going to talk about it.

Rob:
Amazing. Amazing. Because Bobby is a mixed reality technology company. Mixrift is a mixed reality technology company building accessible solutions for immersive experiences. And he’s headquartered in Dublin with teams across Portugal and Romania. They represent a new wave of pan European tech companies. Follows Bobby’s previous successful exit when he sold the gaming company maven hunt mavenhut. And having achieved 1.6 million pre seed funding and rapid 7 week pre seed funding for Mixrift, his track record in scaling exiting tech companies combined with his insights on the evolving technology landscape make for definitely what we will have. Which is an engaging story. So Bobby, is there anything we’re missing that we should be letting our engagers know before?

Bobby Voicu:
I’m listening to your introduction and I’m thinking, are you sure you’re talking about me? I mean I recognize the name but like the phrasing.

Rob:
Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. So Bobby, you know, we were talking before that you are, you know, sort of a bit more on the business side. So what does a day with you look like? What are you, what are you doing when you’re within the company in your professional side?

Bobby Voicu:
The way I see my role in the company. So right now we’re eight. We’re eight. Or nine, actually. No, we’re nine. So we’re nine. We just had a colleague just join us recently on the graphic side of things. So we’re nine people. And the way I see my role in the company is I’m there to make sure everybody else has nothing to think about other than Building the greatest, the best games that they can. Right. I’m an enabler if you want it. I’m there to remove obstacles, you know, to make it as easy as possible for them to do what they’re really good at. And that’s building great games.

Rob:
Amazing, amazing. So talking about building great games, I would love if you could give us one of those times when you guys were building something games or related, you know, immersive experiences and just things. As it happens in game design, pretty often just things didn’t go your way. We want to be there with you. We want to sort of feel what you felt at that time and essentially, you know, see how you came out of it. What were your key lessons? We want to live that experience a bit with you guys at Mixrift.

Bobby Voicu:
First of all, Mixrift is a really new company. We started raising the money and having the idea of it at the end of last year. We started raising the money in January of this year and we fundamentally started to develop new games in around June of this year. So our experience in this company is quite limited. But what I can tell you is.

Rob:
You also, you also have experience from your previous company. So we can.

Bobby Voicu:
Yeah, we had a mobile company before, a mobile games company before, in 2012. We sold it in 2015, 2016. And most of the people in Mixrift are actually people that we work together with in Mavenhut. Right. But we actually. So we’re pretty experienced when it comes to building games for a large audience. Mavenhut had like 40 million downloads. We had 2, 3 million people playing our games every day. So we knew how to build large enough audience. Obviously we’re not Fortnite or anything like that, but we’re big enough. So when we came into Mixrift, obviously we brought that experience with us, but the platforms are different. They have specific particularities that you don’t know until you start building for them. And one of the things that you can do on mobile is that every time you do an update for your game, you can reset the ratings and the reviews. So basically, if you updated your game with something bad, you can basically reset that and you say, look, we’ve updated, the new version of the game is better, so let’s not carry the weight of the previous updates in the new one. Well, Meta Quest doesn’t allow that. So anything that we do that might not be the best really, really carries with us. And we didn’t know that. So at some point in the end of September, in one of our games in Hellhord, we, we made a, we made a modification that our players didn’t really like. So all of a sudden we have a lot of one star ratings across the board when just, just for your audience. But just to be clear, whenever people get upset with you because you broke their toy, whatever that is, you’re not gonna see, let’s call them balanced reviews. You’re gonna see one star reviews, right? It’s not that people are like, oh, I love this game, but this modification, I don’t like it. I gave five star previously and now I’m gonna give you three stars. No, you’re getting one star, right? So all of a sudden we’re across the board in like two or three weeks. We get a lot of one star reviews, everything saying, oh, you implemented monetization in a bad way. Which was, which was fundamentally true. But for us, we implemented that to see how it works because our game, it was in, still in the prototyping stage and we were just testing things because we were just learning the platform. So we get this, we improve that. Now we have mostly 4 and 5 stars reviews. But in order for us to compensate those 1 star reviews, we would need like 7 or 85 star reviews to get around 4.5 stars for each 1 star review. So we learned that the right way and now we’re trying to understand how do we prototype in the future, seeing that every, every time we do something that’s not on the user’s liking, we’re going to get hit.

Rob:
That was my, that was what I was asking because obviously it doesn’t mean that you guys are going to stop prototyping and stop testing things and you’re just going to launch sort of super final products which, especially in a platform like that one, I think it means you never launch anything ever, period. Because products are never final in that sense, especially a game that you actually update stuff. So did you find a way to prototype to, I don’t know, do testing outside of the platform with a certain group of users or something like that? Or is that not possible?

Bobby Voicu:
You can do that up to a point though. We still prototype and we’re not going to start prototyping because this is the way we build games, right? We don’t, like, let’s say we had, in, in the previous company, we, and I’m taking a little bit of, of a circle coming back then. In the previous company we had a one versus one solitaire game, right? A competitive solitaire game. And in that game you had something called a magic that would get you unstuck because solitaire games, as you know, you get stuck and everything, they. It would get you unstuck. Whenever you would ask a player what they would change to our game, they would say, I want the unstucks to be free or to be freely available, as many as possible. But the thing is, if you, if we would have done that, then the game is basically you just press unstuck consistently and that’s it. You would get bored like the next second. Right? So we need. When you prototype, you can only do so much by asking questions. You need to see the real numbers. You need to see how people really play your games. And you cannot do that with small amounts of people. You need. Okay, you need.

Rob:
That was going to be what I was going to ask because, yes, asking questions, people answer whatever it is. They are like people. I’ve heard in entrepreneurship that people always like to say that people vote with their wallets. Right? So I agree on that one. Yet what you’re heading towards, it seems, is even with a group of actual players, real players, that is not enough. You’re saying it has to go broad market to be able to.

Bobby Voicu:
Because when people play a game, whatever the game. Let’s say I was mentioning Fortnite earlier, right? When somebody plays a game, they want improvements to the way they play the game. They don’t think of the bigger picture. Like in Fortnite, I don’t know, there’s people that shoot snipers and all of a sudden they want better snipers. But for somebody that plays with a different weapon, having better snipers in the game means nothing makes the game unplayable, you know, because all of a sudden they don’t move around. They can’t move around that. And so these kind of things, most players don’t think of the bigger experience of the, of the, of the game development. So we need to, to be able to see what players actually do when they hit this kind of walls. There’s a, there’s an interesting video on, on YouTube where the guys from King explain how they built the levels in Candy Crush. And they, they explain how they increase difficulty up to a point where it becomes really difficult and you need to be pretty good to play it. And the moment you cross that level, all of a sudden you get like 5, 10 levels that are a lot easier. You know, if you ask a player, oh, would you like this kind of ramp up in this? They would say, no. Exactly.

Rob:
No, no, no. But that’s what I was heading towards. Like one thing is a survey and the other thing is watching 10 players, 100 players, a thousand players, like seeing what are their reactions versus hitting the 2 million, 3 million market that you were mentioning before. If you hit the 2 million, of course the consequences can be, can be dire.

Bobby Voicu:
As you said before, even at 1000 by, by the time you get to 1000 players, you have statistically relevant numbers. Yeah, so, so you can look, you can look at the. Because we track what players do in our games, we cannot track individual players, but you can track, you can see like 60% of the players did this at this point. We can do that. So we can find like. Let’s talk about Hellhort. Our game. Hell Horde is a, is a, is basically an arcade wave shooter where you have waves of monsters coming at you and between waves you improve your weapons and you get better and, and things like that. So we need to understand how to balance those waves so that the experience you get is one of evolution as a player is one of evolution. You get the experience of the aha moment when you, when you beat a boss, right? Even if it’s hard, you don’t want that boss to be to. You don’t want that boss battle to be won in like your first try because then it’s, it’s too easy. What you, you don’t have the, the, the enjoyment of it. You know, I mean if you think of the souls like games where you fight a boss for like I know people that played weeks at the same boss just to be able to beat them. So you always need to balance that. What players say they want and what they actually show they want. Yeah, totally. And because of that, we need to update and always test things in our games. We’re not the type of company that builds one game. We’re not building GTA 6, like for 15 years.

Rob:
Yeah, yeah.

Bobby Voicu:
We’re building simple games, fun games that you can pick up pretty easily. You play for a while, you take a break, you come back to it, you improve your skill at that game and you can play it over and over again to be, to become better. But we need to understand where, where the, where the balance in gameplay and also we need to talk about it. Monetization comes especially because we build free to play games even more.

Rob:
So. So Bobby, that was fantastic. Lots of insights, you know, many, many, many things in the experience, how you guys are actually, you know, leading back into success with these difficult experiences. So let’s go into one of those experiences. When was the time where you were involved in, you know, game design or creation of a game? Or an experience where things finally at some point did go well. And, you know, is there anything you would attribute that success to?

Bobby Voicu:
So I told you, I told you earlier, because this is a story from the previous company, because Mixrift is just starting. I mean, I hope you will get it together again in like two or three years from now and talk about the success of Mixrift. But Mixrift is still pre success, let’s say. Right? So in the previous company, we were building this one versus one solitaire game. And we had some users, we knew they liked it, but we couldn’t take the next step. And we tried to understand how that works. And so I didn’t do the game design part. My partner in that business did it, but we were always talking about it. So I used to play poker online. And poker online, for me, it was really fun when we played tournaments. And I go to my partner in the business there and I say, why don’t we put tournaments in the game? It’s like, no, I don’t think they will work. He wasn’t playing poker the same the same way as I did. I don’t think it will work. But again, because everything we came up with, there were opinions until we tested them in game. I mean, everybody can come with something that can make the game better, but you don’t know if it makes the game better until you test it. Right?

Rob:
Yeah, opinions are always welcome.

Bobby Voicu:
Exactly. Everybody can have opinions. So basically, in the timeline of development of the game, at some point he put tournaments. And I remember I was in the states looking for the next round of investment at that point. And I see all the numbers going up, retention, conversion rate, installs, monetization. And I send him a message. Because of the times of difference, I send him a message and I’m like, what’s happening? And he’s like, well, we implemented this, but let’s see. You know, every time we do something different, we have like a spike in numbers. Calm down. It’s not gonna. It’s not gonna be there for a long time. A week later, our numbers continue growing. Like, is it okay? He’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s just a week. Don’t worry about it. Well, that modification, three months later, it made us a fully profitable company. And we were like off to the races. Just that small modification that was done. Basically all of a sudden, from May, June of 2013 until October, we grew 10x in everything. Revenues, install numbers, everything. So all of a sudden we were a successful company. That was the point. But it took us two years to get there. Right.

Rob:
You tested something new that did work.

Bobby Voicu:
Essentially, but it’s easy to say, oh, you should have done that earlier. We had a list of 100 improvements we could have done and most of them didn’t work. And I still think that if my co founder then would have implemented the tournaments earlier in the lifetime of the.

Rob:
Game, maybe the story would be different.

Bobby Voicu:
Yeah, yeah. Because we didn’t have enough numbers to generate this, this growth, you know, this explosion. So it’s, it’s. I feel that game development and entrepreneurship in general is a lot of luck. And you are successful when you’re there to take to, to take the opportunity that the luck offers.

Rob:
Meets opportunity. I’ve heard before, I think, you know, it is true that there is a. The opportunity component is. You can almost say it’s kind of random in many ways, but it’s random and it happens, you know, every now and then. And it’s not just that one opportunity of the lifetime and it’s the only time it’s going to come up if you keep putting in the effort and you’re there to receive that opportunity. That’s where luck comes in. Luck doesn’t come in if you’re sitting on your, on your behind all day.

Bobby Voicu:
Yeah. Just, just to, to give you an idea, like a year later I was talking to one of our employees and he said, oh, but you are lucky because you found the solitaire one versus one game. Right. And I’m like, we, we. First of all, when we started, everybody was making fun of us because we made that game. Second of all, because it’s solitary, it’s solo. Why would you play one versus one? Who wants it? Second of all, business wise didn’t make sense because that game was free on all PCs in the world, Right. Because Windows offered it for free. So we had to go through all those learnings that it took us like a year and a half to, to get to the point where we were in the position to use the opportunity we were offering and to be able to see the opportunity. Because when we started, we didn’t know what good numbers look like. When it comes to retention, when it comes to monetization, when it comes to install base, when it comes to acquisition, we didn’t know what, what good meant. So it took us a little bit of time to learn all that and to realize when we saw the increase in retention and the increase in monetization and everything to understand that actually that’s a really, really good feature to implement. So you need to go, I Feel that you need to go through all of that. And it’s not unique to gaming. It’s anything in entrepreneurship. You know, it’s like the overnight success that took 15 years. Yeah. You need to go through that, through your own learning path to understand what makes it successful and, you know, take a hold of it when it comes to you.

Rob:
Totally. So talking about getting to those places is there when creating, you know, a business around games and games that are successful, is there something that you would say is a good practice or something that you say, well, do this and your chances of getting good at it or getting some success are at least better?

Bobby Voicu:
I feel that because I’m on the business side of things. You know, when you have a hammer, everything you see around you is nails. I feel that most people that start developing games, especially not big companies like indie teams, two, three people, five people teams, they look too much at what they want to build rather than what your audience wants you to build. And they always come to you with these examples of people that build the games they wanted and they were successful. But obviously this is survivorship bias, because for every Stardew Valley or Balatro or Vampire Survivors, there’s like thousands of people that tried to do their games and they weren’t successful. And I feel that you need to find a balance between what the audience wants and what you want to build. And I feel that when you want to build a game, first look at what people say about other similar games and try to try to implement that into your game and go from there. Obviously, give it your own twist. Create something that you enjoy building. But on the other hand, don’t try to build something because there’s nothing like it. Yes, you may be slay the spire that builds.

Rob:
Maybe. Maybe there’s a reason you may be.

Bobby Voicu:
Like, slay the spire in 2015. I think they build the Roguelite deck builder games. And starting with. Then you can see the explosion that basically takes us to something like Balatro in 2024. But those are especially now when everything is so crowded in the gaming world. I don’t think that’s where the opportunity lies.

Rob:
Interesting, interesting. And Bobby, we’ve gone through quite a few of the questions now. Is there anybody that you would be curious to hear answering these questions? Sort of a featured guest on Professor Gain.

Bobby Voicu:
Yeah, I like especially, look, I’m building mixed reality games, all right? And I’m going to come to you because I have to talk about it. Mixed reality is basically this moment when. So I’m going to give you an Example Hell Horde. Hell Horde is these monsters coming into your home. Effectively you’re in your living room and they’re jumping over the couch. I haven’t seen anybody testing the game that when the first monster gets to them, doesn’t jump back, even if their brain knows those monsters aren’t there. I mean, I hope nobody lives like that for real with monsters coming into their living room. So I feel that we’re getting to a new level of experiencing game entertainment and stuff. So because of that, I would like to see. It’s hard to get him, but I would like to see John Carmack, because John Carmack, yeah, he’s one of the guys that built Doom, obviously with John Romero, and then he joined the Oculus team. And he was basically part of the people that build the technology that we can now experience that makes us jump in our seats whenever something that is not there. This is so. I mean, the first time I tested the mixed reality devices and I’m saying mixed reality because in my opinion, mixed reality is different from virtual reality in the fact that virtual reality puts you in a completely different environment. So your brain kind of knows that that’s imagination, that’s fantasy. But in mixed reality, you still see your environment. You’re in your office, you’re in your living room. So what happens when you, when you put a headset in mixed reality is that the things that appear in your space, that shouldn’t be there, your brain has a problem in understanding that. Right. Rationally, you know that you don’t have a monster running after you in your own living room. But your brain, it doesn’t. It just your brain, what your brain does, it goes into the three Fs, you know, freeze, flight, or fight. So usually you kinda, you kind of, you kind of find your own version of the Scream.

Rob:
Totally, totally love that. So John Carmack sounds like a very exciting guest. That would be for sure. And talking about recommendations, how about a book? Is there something that you would recommend, an audience like this, when people were thinking of using games for whatever purpose they’re thinking.

Bobby Voicu:
I actually. Talking about Joel Carmack, I’m going to recommend two books, one that I think should be read and one that I just read. And it’s something interesting about it. So one of them is, I think the name is Masters of Doom, which is about ID Software, the company started by John Romero and John Carmack in the 90s that actually built Wolfenstein 3D. Did they build Wolfenstein? I think so. Doom and then Quake. And they basically took us from the 2D platformer to the 3D world. Right. And then so this is the first book you should read just to understand where we’re coming from. And then I feel that you should read Play Nice, which is the story of Activision Blizzard King. Well, now it’s Microsoft. Activision Blizzard King. I don’t even know how you name it anymore, but I feel that that book is really interesting because Activision Blizzard, before they bought King, Activision Blizzard was formed of these two companies. Activision that started the Call of Duty franchise, and Blizzard that started Diablo and World of Warcraft and everything. And they come to gaming with two different mindsets. Activision is like business driven, while Blizzard is the, is driven by the love of the games they create. And you can see how they fight, how they find ways to work together, how they try to balance the needs of each of each part of the company. I felt for me it was really, really interesting. I read it like two months ago or something like that. So I think that Play Nice and Masters of Doom, both of both of these are good books to read. And then you have other kind of books like Fun Ink, which is on understanding why people play games. You know, there are, there are. Look, I can make you a really big list of things that you should read about how to build games and everything, because I’m trying to read everything like the journals of Jordan Mechner, who is the guy that built Prince of Persia and he published his journals during the period where he built Prince of Persia in Karateka at the end of the 80s. It’s like all of these, you, you should read as much as possible because they’re motivational and also I’m sure they’re going to give you things to think about.

Rob:
That makes sense. Thank you for all those recommendations. And in this, in this world of games and game design, what would you say is your superpower, that thing that at least you do better than most other people doesn’t have to be absolutely unique.

Bobby Voicu:
I feel that I’m not going to talk about myself, but about Mixrift in general, about the team at Mixrift. And I think we have, we have this skill set that we honed in the previous company and we, we built on, which is truly prototyping things, understanding that everything you want to do in a game is an opinion until your players confirm that it’s actually a feature and not falling in love with our products. You know, I feel that falling in love with your products, especially when you do prototyping, it’s a really easy way of you not Actually prototyping, you know, because when you prototype you need to say no a lot and you need.

Rob:
To kill things and yes, you know, you don’t want to kill your babies.

Bobby Voicu:
You don’t. But in this context you kind of need to.

Rob:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. That’s why you don’t want to turn them into your babies. That’s, that’s exactly the point.

Bobby Voicu:
I don’t, don’t give them pet names.

Rob:
Absolutely, absolutely. And Bobby, we come to a difficult question now. I’m going to sort of put aside Hellhord for this one. What would you say, you know, probably besides Hellhord or maybe another game that you guys created, what would you say is your favorite game?

Bobby Voicu:
Interesting. I was thinking about this question and I actually as a gamer, I love story driven games. You know, I love the Last of Us, the first one. I love adventure point and click. I mean, I started, I’m 46 years old, so I played my first game on Zetix Spectrum Clone when I was like six. So basically for the last 40 years, gaming is part of my life. So I love story driven games. The Last of Us I think is a really, really exciting game.

Rob:
The first one or the second one?

Bobby Voicu:
I feel that the first one tells a story that’s easier to get into. I feel that the story of hate and revenge of the second one is a little bit more difficult. I feel that the second one is technically a lot better, not only in terms of the game mechanic but also the way they tell the story. I, by the, by the end of the first game I was a little bit confused about the decision in the, in the end, but I, I understood it. But in the second game is not that I didn’t understand it. I felt it. You know, I felt both hate, I felt the need for revenge. I, I, I felt it. So I think it’s better. But what I can tell you is that it’s so much easier for me to replay the first game rather than the second because of the things that you feel during the game.

Rob:
So maybe we’ll stay with Last of Us One for your favorite game this time.

Bobby Voicu:
Yeah, I, I like, I like two, I played it three times, so. But I would rather, if you give me 15 hours and say play the, the game that you want to play, I would rather play the first because of the feelings that I, that I get out of it. But the thing is, I was thinking about it. The games I put the most hours in are not story driven. The game I put the most hours in are Vampire Survivors Balatro last year and before that during COVID Call of Duty, Warzone, you know.

Rob:
Right. So what’s your pick? I mean, you’ve mentioned quite a few awesome games. What’s your pick? Man, I know it’s a difficult one. As of today, this can change. If I ask you tomorrow, maybe you have a different choice.

Bobby Voicu:
I would if you, if you put a gun to my head and say, pick a game that you’re gonna play for the rest of your life. I would pick Warzone 1.

Rob:
War Zone 1.

Bobby Voicu:
Yeah. Because of the fact that it gave me and my friends the possibility of being together in a moment in our lives when we couldn’t really be together. No. So because it was launched in 2020. So because of that, that is the game I would play from now on. I would get bored. And obviously I’m not playing Warzone as much anymore, so I got bored at some point. But if you. Yeah, I would play that. Just because of the, of the community and the fact that you shared experience.

Rob:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Bobby, is there any. Are there any final words, anything you want to say before we end the interview? And of course, let us know where we can find out more about you. Mix Rift and what you guys are doing.

Bobby Voicu:
I feel that you guys should get a meta quest because it’s such a different experience and unfortunately for us, for the developers, for this space, nobody can tell you how different the experience is until you test it for yourself. The experience, what you see on a flat screen from 3D games, from virtual reality, mixed reality games, doesn’t translate the experience itself. So my advice, find especially meta quest 3s, which is around 300 and something. Euros or dollars or pounds. Wait for a discount, I don’t know, but get it because it’s. It’s worth the experience just to see where, where we’re gonna. The way we’re gonna play games in like 5, 10, 15 years from now.

Rob:
Awesome. Love that. So Bobby, thanks again for taking time. You know, we are pretty much in December, well into December. We’re almost into the holiday. So thanks for taking the time to do this interview.

Bobby Voicu:
Thank you for having me.

Rob:
Absolutely. Sharing your experience, your knowledge with the engagers. However, Engagers And Bobby, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you’re interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community at Professor Game on School? You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there. Join Us It’s a platform called School. It’s for free, and you’ll find plenty of resources there. We’ll be up to date with everything that we’re doing, any opportunities that we. Might have for you. And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click Continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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