Rob Alvarez Bucholska
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Tori Mondelli with Innovative Learning with Gamification and AI | Episode 379

 

If you’re struggling to keep people engaged and loyal in your product or business, check out my FREE gamification course to learn how to do just that: professorgame.com/freecommunity-web

Discover the intersection of AI and gamification in education to enhance creativity and efficiency. We’re joined by Dr. Victoria “Tori” Mondelli, a pioneer in the field of educational game design and the founding director of the University of Missouri’s Teaching for Learning Center. This episode dives deep into the world of gamification, exploring how games can be used as powerful educational tools to enhance engagement and learning outcomes.

Dr. Mondelli serves as the Founding Director of the University of Missouri’s Teaching for Learning Center. She is an affiliated faculty member in Adroit Studios Gaming Lab in the College of Education & Human Development and the History Department in the College of Arts and Science. She holds a Ph.D. in early modern European history. Her training as a historian led her to prize writing across the curriculum and writing in the disciplines’ pedagogies. From there, she became an expert in coaching faculty and other educators to incorporate the full gamut of evidence-based and creative practices to maximize student engagement and deepen learning.

Her passion for game-based learning was ignited while at the City University of New York and led her to facilitate workshops nationally, often with her co-author, Dr. Joe Bisz. Their collaborative, highly interactive pedagogy was in need of a scholarly design method to leverage research-based principles known to improve learning. After years of research and praxis, Mondelli and Bisz released their book in 2023, The Educator’s Guide to Designing Games and Creative Active-Learning Exercises: The Allure of Play.

When not playing games, Dr. Mondelli can be found leading strategic teaching initiatives to enhance support for faculty members and graduate instructors. Lately, she has been in the thick or pedagogical and ethical discussions and policy-making for Gen AI at her institution. In short, tech or no tech, she aims to increase the prevalence of learning environments that intentionally build a sense of belonging for ALL learners, while structuring active learning and transparent assessment.

Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He’s also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.

 

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Lets’s do stuff together!

Looking forward to reading or hearing from you,

Rob

 

Full episode transcription (AI Generated)

Rob:
Hey, this is Professor Game where we interview successful practitioners of games, gamification and game thinking to help us multiply engagement and loyalty. I’m Rob Alvarez. I’m a consultant, I’m a coach and I’m the founder here at Professor Game and I’m also a professor of gamification and game inspired solutions at IE University, IE Business School, efmd, EBS University and other places around the world. And before we dive into the interview, you’re struggling with engagement in your business and are looking for to find out how to make your users stay with you. You will find a free community full of resources quite useful. You can find it for free in. The links below in the description and engagers. Welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game podcast and we have Tori Victoria with us today. So welcome. Are you prepared to engage?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Hi Rob. Yes, I am. This is so exciting. I’ve been really looking forward to this day. Thank you.

Rob:
Let’s do this. Because we have Dr. Mondelli today who serves as the founding director of the University of Missouri’s Teaching for Learning Center. She’s an affiliated faculty member at adroid Studios Gaming Lab in the College of Education and Human Development and History Department in the College of Arts and Science. She holds a PhD in early modern European History. Her training as historian led her to prize writing across a curriculum and writing in the disciplines pedagogies. From there she became an expert in coaching faculty and other educators to incorporate full gamut of evidence based and creative practices to maximize engagement and deepen learning after years of practice. By the way, she and Dr. Biz released their book in 2023 which is the educator’s guide to designing games and creative active learning exercise. The Allure of Play. So Tori, do you want me to call you Tori Victoria? Dr. Mondelli, like, what is the best.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
I answered to Tori. Thank you. Thanks Rob.

Rob:
Let’s do this. Is there anything we’re missing there that should be mentioned?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
No. I mean my big move personally and professionally was when I left my home base in New York City where I’m kind of, you know, born and bred and. And then six years ago came to the University of Missouri. So I’m kind of a transplant, but I’m digging the Midwest. It’s very chill and people are nice. I like to have fun.

Rob:
Awesome. Sounds great. So Tori, what does a regular day, if we were hanging out with you, you know, sort of shadowing you during a day, what would that normally look like? If there’s such a thing?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yeah, you know, every day is a Little bit different, but maybe I can think about an ideal day. So I usually come into the center. We’re right here in the heart of the flagship land grant Comprehensive University of Missouri here in Columbia. And our center is gorgeous space right in the Ellis Research Library. So this, we open the center right during COVID I remember they gave us the keys to the new place and then we had to all leave. But you know, it’s we’re here, we’re happy, we’re back. We do a lot of in person game based learning, game design here, but we also do a lot of things remote, you know, because Zoom is where it’s at for a lot of busy faculty and graduate students. So I spend a lot of my time here managing our team and offering professional development for, for faculty and grad instructors across the university. So we have a med school, a law school, vet med, business J school, school of Journalism, arts and sciences. It’s really a comprehensive, wonderful place to be. So aside from professional development, I’ve been leading with others many big initiatives here on campus, such as what do we do about generative AI and education. Right. How do we approach this? Do we need policies? So a lot of my time the past two years has been in that important work also.

Rob:
Sounds great, sounds great. Plenty of things to keep you busy for sure, Tori. And talking about game based learning and all these strategies that we love to discuss here and that we started our conversation together as well. What would be one of those times when things did not go well, at least initially. We know about iteration and improvement and all that, but we want to be there on the ground, you know, holding those boots, trying to push through with you. We want to feel those difficulties and learn from them as well.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yes, I think for me, and it’s kind of a persistent place to learn and grow, is really around accessibility, universal design for learning, when we’re making playful activities and learning games. So, you know, I think of it as maybe failing forward, right? This idea that we can try to anticipate and design proactively for all learners with different abilities, mobilities, etc. But I don’t know about other universities and what our engagers, our listeners, what kind of resources they have access to. We don’t always have ideal resources to do maybe bring our greatest ideas to life right away. So it’s kind of that iterating forward of what can I be aware of with this game design to make it maximally inclusive and accessible and then doing our best and using your playtesters and using your colleagues to help you co design and come up with that. And then when resources are needed, being creative about who do we reach out to? Just the other day I was so happy to learn of a potential new partner on campus, Somebody from occupational therapy who is innovating new controls, video game controls for people with limited mobility in their hands. And it’s just so exciting. It’s like, oh my gosh, I didn’t even know there was somebody right on campus who is prototyping and doing that work. So yeah, so for me it’s really being super mindful about accessibility and just not giving up on that.

Rob:
Was there a time when this happened that you remember? Like, oh, we were trying to do this and we realized in the middle of everything that we needed to do this other thing, which you don’t know what you don’t know. Right? That’s, that’s a typical.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yeah. Most of the game design I do with faculty is our board games and card games and there’s some getting up and moving around the room and stuff like that. So that part for me is like, there’s always things to think through and there’s always, you know, better ways to imagine handling that than others. But this, the past year or so I’ve been working with the political science department. We are making a suite of games and one of them includes a video game around political ideology. And so there’s a whole team there. So it’s not just me. I don’t have to be the only one worried about it. Thank goodness there’s smarter, more techy people than me out there. And so far I think we’re doing a good job. But we’re about to release. So so far with the play testers we seem okay, but I’m a little nervous. We’ll, we’ll see how that goes.

Rob:
Interesting. Love it. And love the sort of scientific approach. Right. Like we’re, we know where we are, we don’t know what’s ahead. Like, we don’t know it’s not going to go well. And we’ll see. We’re going to play test and see, see what happens essentially and see where we, where our curiosity continues to lead us and what are the improvements we need and what are the changes? And is, does this even make sense at this point? Like that’s, that’s the kind of thing that you face, you know, and that’s part of, part of the job and it’s one of the most difficult things of, of the job in that sense for many people. So inspiring. Amazing. Love it because also has to do with accessibility and all these very, very important topics in gaming. And of course we went through a difficult time where, you know, you were not sure if things were going to work out and you know, you’ve told us about how do you face these situations which come out more often than some would expect, perhaps. How about we go for a time when something did go very well, like you wanted to achieve something and you’re proud of that success that you and your team had.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Oh, thanks for that. Yeah, that’s a happy question. So I think I even want to back up even a little more than not just my team here at the University of Missouri, but really my thought partner, my co author, Joe Biz and I, we’ve been working together for more than a decade. I think at this point, 15 years. And in the beginning we found that we could engage faculty in thinking about making their learning environments more playful. But we realized that actually we need a scholarly method, we need a framework. We need to give them guidance so that their games deliver on the learning side, not just the engagement side. And so I would say our biggest achievement was that we took that vision and we made it happen. It took us a long time to write the book, but we did it and now it’s out there and we just get such lovely feedback from everybody who’s employing the allure of playing method for designing their learning games that it’s so helpful to them. So, yeah, hands down, if you’re going to ask the biggest achievement question, it’s got to be the book. It’s got to be giving resources to people to do this, to maximize this and optimize this all over.

Rob:
Even, even expensive, very expensive books are still, you know, something. A book is always something that is very accessible in many terms, right? Like, oh, yeah, you know, the book. I mean, I don’t know, sometimes they’re super expensive books. I don’t know the cost of your book. But in any case, it’s not like, you know, hiring a coach, right? Which tends to be something that is a lot more expensive, somebody handholding you. But in many ways a book, there’s a lot of that hand holding if you want to sort of follow through and if you really want to do that. And if it’s, of course, if the book is done well, which I’m sure is the case. So it is. I love the fact, and this is sort of throwing stones on my back because I haven’t written a book. It’s one of those things where you say, well, you know, It’s a very accessible means to have people be able to do these things and to help them and guide them through. Through that. And that’s one of the reasons I love it. Maybe it’s because I have a podcast which kind of fulfills that as well, but yeah, it’s definitely something that is pending on my list.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yes. Yeah. And I feel like the podcast is even more accessible. Right. Because the book kind of demands a certain amount of time that people are going to devote. But Joe and I wrote the book so that it’s really playful itself. There’s a fictional character. There’s, you know, faculty members thinking through, thinking aloud. We’ve made it as interactive as a book could be. And our publisher, Teachers College Press, you know, was. Was happy for us to do that. There’s illustrations, we even have a little color in there. And the price point isn’t too bad, you know, $41, but a lot of times they run that 10%, 20% off. I was thinking of ebooks a little cheaper.

Rob:
Those academic books, which I have one on my desk right now, from what I’m teaching, that you can find a book and cost like $300, $400. That’s like the high. I’m not even honestly sure why they’re so costly, but that’s like the high end still. Even on that high end, you say yes, but, you know, you. In theory at least, or that’s what the value that you should be getting. You get all of this handholding for all the topics that you have there. 40, 20, 60, 90. I still think that’s super, super excessive. And if we can spend $60 in a video game. Right. We can definitely spend $40 in a lot of value.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
I love the fact that the engagers, your group is global. And so I will say, you know, like US dollar versus this dollar versus that dollar. You know, I guess it’s all relative. Depends where you live and how your currency’s doing at the moment. Tricky, tricky stuff every day.

Rob:
Yeah, no, for sure. I am like, I’m originally from Venezuela. I mean, I think things have changed. Not necessarily for the good, because definitely not. But, you know, the way that the exchange rates work has changed because I know from my time it was just insane. Like the official rate was here. The actual rate was 20, 50, 100 times greater, which, you know, it was just a complete mess. But anyways, let’s get back into talking about great stuff. Tori, you have a book, you’ve done this for many a lot of time. You actually do this for A living. When somebody comes up with a problem that you want to solve using game based learning, gamification and these strategies, how do you do it? What are the steps? How is the process? What are the things that people should be doing to get to those results? You promise?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Wonderful. Yeah. First of all, I love it when they have a problem. I love it when they have an issue. Because game based learning, I feel is the most powerful pedagogy to help students through what I’ll call what one of my communities, the decoding the disciplines community, calls student learning bottlenecks. Game based learning can unclog those learning bottlenecks like no other pedagogy. I see it every day. So what we do is we start with, well, what’s the lesson objective? Or what’s the student learning outcome that you’re trying to, you know, get the students to practice, to get feedback on and then to master? And that is really step one of the Allure method. Allure is an acronym, so it’s a six step backward Design. Design method, yeah. And basically we start almost from an instructional designer standpoint. We don’t start as a game designer. We start really just looking at what are the thinking steps even to get to a student to that learning outcome. Right. Like there’s sometimes those student learning outcomes are really kind of, let’s say, you know, write a thesis statement. Right. Like so people who know how to write a thesis statement, that seems really clear. But if you’re a student, you don’t know how to write a thesis statement. Oh my gosh, where do I start? Right. So it’s like unpacking the learning objective or the outcome into more granular, sequenced kinds of mental activities that experts do almost in their sleep, you know, and for those who know the decoding the disciplines branch of the scholarship of teaching and learning, this is very much inspired by the decoding paradigm. To start there, start with what is the learning objectives? And then if you’ve taught this class before, where are the students getting stuck? You know, the majority of them, I mean, some students are just going to blaze through whatever it is we throw at them. But you know, where, what’s what, where are they bringing misconceptions, where are they? Maybe they have some emotional kinds of resistance that that’s justified, Right. Like some topics, I’m a historian, we get into topics that, you know, are really, really hard. They’re triggers. And, and we talk about math, right? Oh goodness, yes. Yes. Right. So you got it.

Rob:
It’s a broad spectrum. What some people can Find in different ways and for different reasons people can find challenging, right?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yes. And so, you know, we have. We know that we can move the thinking steps into a playful space, but we really want to start there. Once we have that, that’s where the Allure Method, I think, where we’re really adding value. Because what Joe and I have done is we’ve categorized nine complex game mechanics and we have aligned them to Bloom’s taxonomy so that once you have your thinking steps and your student learning outcome, you know what level of blooms, you need to have your students, you know, in the play space. So are they. Do they just merely need to understand something, or do they need to analyze something? Do they need to apply something? Do they need to create something? So our nine complex mechanics are, you know, just a variety of playful teaching bundles, teaching and learning bundles that we help faculty pick which one is at the core of your student learning objective. And then we have the core mechanics. And from there you can layer on more, more mechanics, whether they’re complex or simple, and continue your way through the rest of the Allure Method, which I won’t spend too much time on it, but U is a quality control step. R is running the game. How do you facilitate it as like an epic game master, and then E, which is evaluating your learner experience on the fun side and on the learning side. So that’s when they come with a problem. Rob, it’s my happiest moment. It’s like, good, you’ve come to the right place. Let’s take our most powerful pedagogical tool and see where. See where it takes us.

Rob:
I love the way you said that, because I always make a joke when I’m doing workshops both in corporate and learning environments, because I’ve heard this and I’ve actually been said this by clients when they come in and say, yeah, I want to gamify. Oh, yeah, fantastic. Why do you want to gamify? What’s your problem to solve? As you were saying? Oh, I want to make things fun. All right, let’s sort of depending on how much, you know, trust and how much I know the client and the person in particular, I might joke a bit more about it or be sort of more, you know, try to go around it. But it’s like, if that’s what you want to do, just bring in some PlayStations, some Xboxes, some switches, some board games and just throw them out there. Everybody’s going to have a lot of fun, right? And if somebody’s not having fun, ask them what game they want to play. And maybe it’s a football that you need to. Right. Like there are, there’s many ways of having fun, but fun is not the problem that you’re after. And that’s where you start going to the core of actually what is the problem, why they think that fun is the solution. And as you were saying, like when they come with a problem, you’ve already solved the first 10 steps of getting them to that place. So that’s what immediately came to my mind when you said that.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yes, yes, good example.

Rob:
And this is commonplace I found, at least in after a few interviews.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
I have seen that. I have seen that too.

Rob:
What do you want to do in the classroom? I want them to have fun. Well, forget about you. Use your projector and play some games and get them to see somebody. You know, famous video game players. Why? Why would I do that? Well, you say you wanted fun. Right. But anyways, anyways, Tori, there are many things that can be done through playfulness, game based learning and all of these strategies. Is there a. I don’t want to call it silver bullet. I always, I would, I repeat this very much, but a best practice something you say, well, when you’re doing these things, whether you follow exactly the method that we use or any of the other methods out there, if you think about this, if you use this, if you do this other thing, your project’s at least going to be a little bit better.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Wow, this is revealing just how connected I am to the Allure method. Because I have a hard time like moving away from it. I’m like, well, with.

Rob:
Within, within the things that you have in there, maybe there’s one thing that you could say, well, yeah, you know, if, even if you don’t follow everything, you take this and you put it into whatever other method you have and it’s still, I mean, in my experience, it always, always works with big quotation marks.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Right. Okay. And maybe I’ll riff off of our, our last point, which is that, you know, a lot of times people will come to, to me come to you and others and say, well, you know, I just, you know, I want, I want them to have more fun or they’re just not engaged. You know, there’s low attendance or they’re in the back of the room. I don’t know if they’re shopping online or listening or, you know, so, so I think what I would say is when people come to us with that, they’re sensing that their students are not motivated, that whether there’s a breakdown on Intrinsic motivation or extrinsic motivation, but they’re just bodies and seats or they’ve just logged on to an online course. And so one of the easy ways, like a very light way to use some of the resources we give in the allure of play doesn’t get you into all the complex game mechanics and the deeper learning that most of us want. But here’s a really nice way, just a quick mod that people can do. You can take an existing active learning exercise you have, even if it’s something as simple as like I think pair share or a sorting activity or something like that, and you can add simple game mechanics. You can just layer them on. And I believe that the more of these you layer on, the more fun and the more engaged students will be. So Joe and I, we have five simple mechanics. They all begin with the letter R to make it easy, Random, rapid, roll, rival and reward. Okay, so we also have cards on these, which is nice to have at your desk. So if anybody’s interested later, we’ll give you the website. You can get the car cards if you don’t want to get the whole book. So if you just take a non game activity learning activity and you’re thoughtful about at least adding two or three of them, maybe sometimes you can add all five, all of a sudden you have a more playful learning activity and it’s not going to detract. Now one thing I will say with the rapid game mechanics, simple game mechanic is usually from an accessibility point of view. Right. The universal design for learning is you probably also want to have a self paced option. Right. Because speed is not accessible for everybody, it can undermine people very, very easily. So yeah, I think adding the simple mechanics to something you already have will just boost it.

Rob:
It’ll give you at least a sense of what’s going on. Love it, love that.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Thank you.

Rob:
Tori, you’ve been on the podcast for most of the questions. Now you’ve also heard a couple of episodes. Is there somebody that you would say, well, I would really be curious about what this person would say answering those questions. A future guest that you would definitely want to listen to if it hasn’t been already on the podcast.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yeah. So one of my former colleagues from City University of New York, his name is Dr. Robert Duncan and is professor of psychology. And I would love to hear him on the podcast, mainly because I’m fascinated with how deeply and wonderfully he uses co design. And what I mean by that is co design with students for game design in his classes and for wider authentic Audiences in psychology. So it’d be really, he’d be, it’d be fascinating to have him in the future again.

Rob:
Sounds like a very interesting person to have for sure. And Tori, right next to your fantastic your and, and, and Dr. Biz’s fantastic book, right? We already know that your book is, is out there. We definitely want to have it on our shelves next to your book. What book would you recommend the engagers to have? And of course, why.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Okay, it’s a little bit older, so I, maybe that’s a good thing we bring back. You know, we go old school and go retro. But one of the books that I read a number of years ago by Jane McConnell of Reality is Broken was so inspiring to me. And then I had the opportunity to hear her speak. I think it was at an educause and she really practices what she preaches, even in a speech and speaking as a keynote. I just love how she really comes at it from the psychological angle. But then very quickly brings us to just unleash creative power and collective creative power. I love that about her ideas and the work that she does. So like I said, it’s an oldie but a goodie. And I love to see women in gaming and I think Jane is just a terrific role model for us.

Rob:
Jane is absolutely fantastic. I can’t agree more. And interesting enough. I don’t know if I’ve said this before. On the podcast, I, I found out that she has a twin sister.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Ah, yes, I heard that.

Rob:
And she’s a PhD in psychology, something around psychology. And I, I, I use a, a, a meditation app and she was featured. And initially I thought it was Jane. It’s like, what’s Jane doing talking about it was not Jay. Was her twin sister there at that point? And of course not knowing either of them personally, I, I thought they were literally the same person. But yes, absolutely fantastic. Her sister, at least from what I saw there, seems super smart. Just like, just like Jay.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Well, we’re, we’re practically siblings too. Because if we both love learning games so much and then we both love meditation so much, that’s another thing that I’m turning to every day to, for lots of reasons. It’s wonderful.

Rob:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And now we get to the difficult question. Tori, what would you say is your favorite game?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Oh, this is a light one, but I cannot deny it is my favorite. I just love playing it. Snake oil. Have you played this game?

Rob:
That’s a board game, right?

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
It’s a board game.

Rob:
I think I’ve heard of it. I’M not sure if I’ve played it.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
It, it’s, it’s kind of have some things in common with apples to apples, but you’re basically kind of a charlatan who’s trying to sell the snake oil that’s going to cure your ails. But it’s this really fun combination of words, adjectives and nouns, or two nouns, I’m forgetting which. And you have to play the part of a salesperson and then all of the other players are, have specific roles that they’re listening to your product pitch. But from that vantage point of I’m a single mom or I’m, I don’t know, a police officer or, you know, everybody has different roles and so it’s just, it’s hilarious. And there, there are learning modifications that you can do to bring it into your classroom too and have Stevenson enjoy it. That, that’s a cool one.

Rob:
Sounds like a very good one. That’s. I was imagining, of course you always talk about, you always hear about snake oil and I was imagining it was something of that sort, but I wasn’t entirely sure.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Yeah, see if you can find some people to play with. I think you’ll, you’ll definitely have some laughs.

Rob:
Absolutely. Sounds like a lot of fun, for sure. Tori, we’re arriving to the end of the interview. At this point, I don’t know if there’s anything else, any final piece of advice you want to give the engagers and of course, please let us know where we can find out more about you, your book, maybe your co author, I don’t know, wherever it is that you want to lead us.

Victoria “Tori” Mondelli:
Thank you, Rob. I just want to maybe end this episode by saying depending on where you are with your reasons for using generative AI or not, if you’re one of the people who are kind of exploring that, I would say that it is the great frontier now for co intelligence with game design. My colleagues and I are just having our minds blown every day with how quickly and beautifully we can co design with the AI. I think, you know, it’s just a whole new world now. So, you know, we’re doing sessions here in the center on game design with AI and it’s just a real exciting time because prior to AI, I would say like when Joe and I wrote the book, it just takes, you have to invest time. So we would talk about, you know, return on investment, you know, how long is it going to take me to make this game and then what this. Will the student learning be worth it? You know, and always my answer was. Yes. But you know, you got to persuade people and time is, time is tight. So now that we have generative AI and just seeing what you can do together with it, how quickly you can get at your game designs and even produce cards or rudimentary board or things like that, it’s just all of a sudden now it’s just really low bar to entry. So good luck everyone. If you’re doing that, if you’re not using Genai for ethical reasons, I understand that too. I mean, we really have to deal with what it’s going to mean for environmental impacts and how we can navigate forward and not endanger everybody and everything. Yeah. So anyway, the way to reach me, I would say I have two websites, one with jobiz, it’s called allure of pro play.com lots of free resources there too. And then my own website, Victoria Mondelli.com and then I’m also on LinkedIn Victoria Mondelli. So I would love to, you know, keep engaging. Ralph, congratulations on the community that you have convened. I look forward to seeing people there and connecting. Thank you so much.

Rob:
Absolutely. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. All of these links to the webpage and so on will definitely be right there on our show. Notes on the bottom of the description of the episode, whatever that looks like, depending on where you’re seeing or hearing this. However, Tori, however, Engagers, as you know, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it’s game over. Hey engagers, and thank you for listening to the Professor Game podcast. And since you’re interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement, loyalty using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community at Professor Game on School. You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to click there. Join us. It’s a platform called School. It’s for free and you’ll find plenty of resources there will be up to date with everything that we’re doing, any opportunities that we might have for you and of course, before you go on to your next next mission, before you click continue, please remember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of Professor Game. See you there.

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